Eternal Hell
A British priest in the nineteenth century wrote the following about what hell would be like for eternity:
“A little child is in this red-hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out! See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire! It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell — despair, desperate and horrible.” (George H. Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, p.300)
To be honest, I can barely even read the above paragraph.
I have never been comfortable with the idea of eternal hell (not that my comfort has anything do with God’s perfect will and judgment). He is God and I am not. Whatever he says goes, and I humbly and willingly submit and thank Him daily for his grace that is extended to me. I have spent more than 30 years believing in eternal hell. Many great men of God who are better men that I can ever hope to be have given their lives to save others from hell.
The problem is…this doesn’t seem to fit with God’s character. God is immutable (Mal 3:6). The God who said love your enemies, is going to pronounce an infinite torture sentence on His enemies as punishment for a finite life of sin (definitely not “an eye for an eye”). Jesus told us to forgive “70 times 7” but billions of people who never even knew He existed (or even chose to be born) will never see God’s forgiveness. He told us (through Paul) to not let the sun go down on our wrath, yet He is willing to allow his wrath to endure forever. He even specifically said burning children in a fire is abominable and something that he hates (Deut 12:31). There are many more issues that could be listed here as well.
If you were raised as a fundamentalist (as I was), I already know all of your arguments, and I doubt this brief article will convince you otherwise. I just hope that maybe reading this will spark you to investigate this on your own and read the Bible asking the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Please understand that I am not trying to say that there is no hell. There is definitely a judgment and a punishment awaiting those that do not know Christ. Hell is to be avoided at all costs; it will be nothing short of horrible. After much prayer, intense Bible study and exhaustive research using even the original Greek, I have been led to conclude that the punishment of hell in the Bible is not eternal.
This is not a simple study. Some of the things that must be addressed are as follows:
1. What is hell? Who was hell created for?
2. What is the human soul? What Hebrew and Greek words are translated “soul” into our English Bible?
3. Do humans automatically possess an immortal soul? If so, why did God put an angel in the garden of Eden to guard the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22)
4. What did God say would happen if man ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? What did Satan say would happen? (Gen 2:17, 3:4)
5. Is there a difference between Soul and Spirit in a man? If so – what are the differences? If not – explain Hebrews 4:12
6. What words are translated “hell” into our English Bible? (there are 3 in the NT and 1 in the OT and you need to know the definition of each)
7. What words are translated “eternal” into our English Bible? Is the same word always translated “eternal” each time it’s used in other places?
8. Read I John 5:11-12. If you were spending eternity in hell, wouldn’t you have “life” albeit a very unpleasant one? Would it not be heresy to say that you can obtain eternal life (of any kind) from someone other than Jesus?
9. What did the earliest Christians think about eternal hell?
10. Why does mainstream Christianity/most Christians think hell is eternal? Where did this school of thought come from? (hint: It’s not in the OT or Jewish thinking at all)
11. Why did the apostle Paul not mention hell once?
The above is nowhere near a comprehensive list (I can easily double this list), but are some of the things you must undertake in order to get a complete grasp of this topic.
A study like this is eye-opening and amazing, regardless of whether you come to the same conclusion that I have. I wholeheartedly recommend you spend some time solidifying your beliefs in this area; you will be blessed with another measure of faith if you do.
“A little child is in this red-hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out! See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire! It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell — despair, desperate and horrible.” (George H. Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, p.300)
To be honest, I can barely even read the above paragraph.
I have never been comfortable with the idea of eternal hell (not that my comfort has anything do with God’s perfect will and judgment). He is God and I am not. Whatever he says goes, and I humbly and willingly submit and thank Him daily for his grace that is extended to me. I have spent more than 30 years believing in eternal hell. Many great men of God who are better men that I can ever hope to be have given their lives to save others from hell.
The problem is…this doesn’t seem to fit with God’s character. God is immutable (Mal 3:6). The God who said love your enemies, is going to pronounce an infinite torture sentence on His enemies as punishment for a finite life of sin (definitely not “an eye for an eye”). Jesus told us to forgive “70 times 7” but billions of people who never even knew He existed (or even chose to be born) will never see God’s forgiveness. He told us (through Paul) to not let the sun go down on our wrath, yet He is willing to allow his wrath to endure forever. He even specifically said burning children in a fire is abominable and something that he hates (Deut 12:31). There are many more issues that could be listed here as well.
If you were raised as a fundamentalist (as I was), I already know all of your arguments, and I doubt this brief article will convince you otherwise. I just hope that maybe reading this will spark you to investigate this on your own and read the Bible asking the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Please understand that I am not trying to say that there is no hell. There is definitely a judgment and a punishment awaiting those that do not know Christ. Hell is to be avoided at all costs; it will be nothing short of horrible. After much prayer, intense Bible study and exhaustive research using even the original Greek, I have been led to conclude that the punishment of hell in the Bible is not eternal.
This is not a simple study. Some of the things that must be addressed are as follows:
1. What is hell? Who was hell created for?
2. What is the human soul? What Hebrew and Greek words are translated “soul” into our English Bible?
3. Do humans automatically possess an immortal soul? If so, why did God put an angel in the garden of Eden to guard the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22)
4. What did God say would happen if man ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? What did Satan say would happen? (Gen 2:17, 3:4)
5. Is there a difference between Soul and Spirit in a man? If so – what are the differences? If not – explain Hebrews 4:12
6. What words are translated “hell” into our English Bible? (there are 3 in the NT and 1 in the OT and you need to know the definition of each)
7. What words are translated “eternal” into our English Bible? Is the same word always translated “eternal” each time it’s used in other places?
8. Read I John 5:11-12. If you were spending eternity in hell, wouldn’t you have “life” albeit a very unpleasant one? Would it not be heresy to say that you can obtain eternal life (of any kind) from someone other than Jesus?
9. What did the earliest Christians think about eternal hell?
10. Why does mainstream Christianity/most Christians think hell is eternal? Where did this school of thought come from? (hint: It’s not in the OT or Jewish thinking at all)
11. Why did the apostle Paul not mention hell once?
The above is nowhere near a comprehensive list (I can easily double this list), but are some of the things you must undertake in order to get a complete grasp of this topic.
A study like this is eye-opening and amazing, regardless of whether you come to the same conclusion that I have. I wholeheartedly recommend you spend some time solidifying your beliefs in this area; you will be blessed with another measure of faith if you do.
Labels:
eternal hell,
punishment and the Bible
Good topic on something I've never really put much thought into, just really believe what I was "told" as a kid.
How do you explain the "Rich Ruler" who begged for redemption and someone to tell his family about his torment? It was pretty obvious that after the actual reality of hell, he believed, but his "hell" was not taken away?
I agree with cshellpace re the rich young ruler but I would think that this discussion could be framed in the broader question of "How do you define the holiness of God?" "Is He (GOD) really Holy?" "Is that one of his attributes?" Assuming that the answer is yes, and you have not put your faith in Christ then there can be no eternity with God and indeed you could never be in God's presence. It is like mixing Oil and water, you can't do it. So that would lead me to conclude that "Hell" in this context is living eternally apart from God. How Hell or this existence is described can be for another post. More on your questions later
FYI
The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:
In the Old Testament:
* 31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means
“the grave”
In the New Testament:
* 10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means
“the grave”
* 12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means
“a place of burning”
* 1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means
“a place of darkness”
Good questions. rather than answer the questions, let me say that I think many people tend to argue that hell isn't eternal because they WANT IT not to be eternal. They want to believe that their friends who are going there are only in for a thousand years of burning, not eternity. Its a sad consolation, but it is consulation for them. It is a kind of defense mechanism to belive so.
This "want to" obviously should have nothing to the with the answer. The answer lies in the bible, and I'm already seeing some arguements from it.
Chuck - the rich man and lazarus story is a parable. I was going to type it all out - but you can read it here (kinda long but worth knowing):
http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
Jim - your comment of God's holiness is always the fallback position for the Fundamentalist, but you still can't explain I John 5:11-12 because conscious existence is life. Eradicating evil entirely solves this holiness dilemma. You are also right in your hell breakdown (if you use the KJV Bible) but if you use the NIV it's 13 times. That's a complete discussion on it's own, but the only word with any torture association to it is tartarus and it's only used in 2 Peter 2:4 (look it up and see who ends up in tartarus).
Kevin - I only want the truth. If I can be shown that hell is eternal I will gladly change my position. The last thing I want to do is water down God's word. I honestly think many "Christians" are glad or even joyful that people would be going to hell. We can't even get denominations to agree that the other denominations aren't going to eternal hell.
Understand it'a a parable...but why would God lead us astray on something like the issue of "hell"?
I think it is very clear in scripture that we chose life with Christ or life without him. I don't think it is very clear as to whether it may be forever or just for a time until I get uncomfortable and change my mind. (sarcasm alert)
Like you said, it is good to get this stuff out in the open for discussion and really decide what and why you believe something. I just think I may be 0-1 in Larryology :)
p.s. L. Ray Smith is what I would call "big time" questionable in his theology and motives.
Just my opinion.
I don't think He lead us astray - what are you talking about? Please expound.
When did I say you could "change your mind" in hell and get out? See my point #3 in the post.
I wasn't advocating Mr. Smith or his website; you can google "rich man and lazarus" and get 100 websites than translate that parable the same way.
Show me from Scripture that can choose ETERNAL life without Christ (per your comment). Heresy I say (LOL!)
Larry,
I am not arguing as a fundamentalist but one who strives to learn the truth in the bible as you do. What is your view of God's holiness and why do you think God could allow those who haven't accepted Christ into his presence at anytime during eternity? I will get to the John passage but you have to give me more than "eradicating evil solves the holiness delima?" "What does eradicating evil have to do with your own personal sin that separates you from God?" And if it was to be eradicated eventually why did Christ come to die for our sins?
Here is 1 John 5:11-12 from the NASB translation which I choose because it is a word for word translation from the Greek and is often more accurate but occasionally clumsy to read but good to study from.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
It seems clear that those who have the Son have the life that is eternal. It also mentions that those who do not have the Son do not have this life. That doesn't mean that they don't have life i.e. they are not still alive apart from God but that they don't have Eternal Life in His Son as stated in verse 11.
Jim - I'm running out the door but I'll address the holiness issue when I get back as it's important. Think about some of the most popular verses in the Bible:
John 3:16 "shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;"
Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord"
Gen 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
I can list lots of others but this is my point:
What word can someone use other than death, die, perish to try to say that the soul can die? Is there another word that someone could use to make this point? Ezekiel says "The soul that sinneth it shall die". The I John passage we were discussing says eternal life is only found in Jesus (the Son). I am not sure how can you be "alive" with conscious enduring of pain and that not be called "life" (no matter how much that life sucks).
I have more but gotta run....
I have to run also...11 miles today :) When you get back you also have the burden of explaining Matthew 25:46 and how your view fits in with eternal punishment that is found in this verse
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Now there are those that will say that the Greek for eternal in the phrase "eternal punishment" doesn't mean forever but more of an unknown but finite time. The problem is that the word for eternal in "Eternal life" is the exact same word as the word for eternal in "Eternal punishment" so whatever you do with one you must do with the other. If we don't have eternal punishment then we can't have eternal life.
The idea of salvation after death does also not square with Heb 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment"
Jim - that's a great question and one of the first ones that came to my mind when I started down this path. Believe it or not though, it actually supports my position strongly as follows:
Gen 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
I am taking this verse at FACE VALUE.
Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
I am taking this verse at FACE VALUE.
Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I am taking this verse at FACE VALUE.
So...let's examine this. God said we would die if we ate the fruit. Paul said the wages of sin is death - so the NT agrees with the OT. Now let's carry this forward to Matt 25:46. After the resurrection of the dead there will be judgments - those with Christ are given eternal life (just as it was promised). Those not with Christ are given their punishment as well - death - and it is eternal (just like it says). There will never be another resurrection for those people. It is EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT - the punishment is everlasting - it is eternal death - you will never live again. It does not say "everlasting punishing".
Think about what it takes to go with the alternative. You have to take Gen 2:17 and Rom 6:23 and do the following:
"Well...what it really means is physical death but not spiritual death. Really what happens is you will physically die and then your soul or spirit is tortured throughout eternity."
If that's the case - the wages of sin aren't "death" but the wages of sin are actually an eternal torture world that makes Auschwitz look like Disney World.
It seems like if we will let the Bible say what it means and not read our background into it (which is what I did for 30+ years) the pages jump alive at you differently.
Regarding the holiness issue - it actually goes along with what I just said. I agree God's holiness won't allow him to accept people into his presence who haven't accepted Christ. That's what the Great White Throne judgment is all about. They will be judged according to what they have done (see Rev 20:11-13) and then thrown into the lake of fire. Then it very clearly says "the lake of fire is the second death". They will be annihilated in the lake of fire, they will die. I'm not sure what other verbiage could be used to communicate death other than "death". I don't know how long this will take - maybe each person is different. Now read verse 10.....Satan has a different deal. Why make that distinction if there is none?
The question it seems that you are trying to answer is "Is the soul eternal?" It sounds like you are arguing for some type of divine capital punishment after a period of prision (Hell). So if I am right in the framing of the question then are you saying that only those who have eternal life, have an eternal soul and those who have eternal punishment do not have an eternal soul because it ceases to exist at some future time?
I wasn't trying to answer that question - I was answering your question on Matt 25:46 (how did I do by the way?). I will gladly answer that question though - see below:
1 Tim 6:15-16
15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
God is the only one who is immortal - he's going to have to give you the gift of eternal life if you're going to live forever.
Matt 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Is anyone going to challenge Jesus that the soul can be destroyed?
Directly answering your question: I'm not arguing for anything other than reading the Bible and accepting what it says. I'm tired of trying to defend "death", "destroyed", "perish" and make it say the opposite. The position of the natural man "is dead in transgressions and sins" (Eph 2:1). So it's not exactly how you phrased it; no one has immortality (eternal soul) unless you are in Christ.
Ok my turn to ask a question - can anyone provide me with a Scripture that would prove the soul to be immortal or eternal by nature?
I will get to where the concept of where the eternal soul came from but for now let's look at Matt 25:46 which I think we have a logical disagreement about and it is in regards to the how the word eternal relates to the word life and punishment. The scripture teaches that we are given eternal life. It does not, for some reason, just say in this passage that we are given life. In other scriptures it talks about abundant life etc but for now we are looking at Matthew. We associate eternal with infinity, forever, never to cease, etc. So when combined with LIFE we have life forever or life that never stops. This creates a grammatical problem with death. If the scripture just used the word death or punishment in Matthew then that would lead us to conclude it is a one time event. Similar to how our fathers might have punished us as kids. It was a one time event, not an ongoing event. But if you put the word eternal with punishment or death it becomes infinite punishment or a forever punishment, one that never ceases. The word eternal is the same in both cases in the Greek so we must interpret it the same way. It comes down to a syntactical issue as to whether you use punishment or punishing, the key term in the phrase is eternal.
one more example...
Consider a phrase I found on the internet from someone in support of your position.
"The destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire is permanent. It is a punishment that cannot be reversed. The act of punishing will come to an end, but the consequences will last for eternity."
This is in my view a wrong use of English. The fact that is the consequences will last for eternity is the same thing as the punishment continuing because the consequences is the punishing and it lasts for eternity.
Jim - I'm glad you are bringing these issues up - other people are reading this and thinking these things but are scared to post (for whatever reason). Jesus is not scared of any of our questions, so we can freely ask.
I disagree with your logic. You have no problem with the term "eternal life" but have a grammatical problem with "eternal death".
We already know the punishment for sin per Rom 6:23 and Gen 2:17. The word eternal just confirms that there is no reversal of it, just as it would be impossible to die once given immortality in Christ.
Your 2nd post I don't get at all:
"The fact that is the consequences will last for eternity is the same thing as the punishment continuing because the consequences is the punishing and it lasts for eternity."
If we execute a murderer on death row by electric chair - the execution does not continue once they are dead but the results do. By your statement above, the execution and the results of the execution are the same thing and that's just not true.
We already know the punishment for sin per Rom 6:23 and Gen 2:17. The word eternal just confirms that there is no reversal of it, just as it would be impossible to die once given immortality in Christ.
I think there is more to it than just confirming that there is no reversal for it. That would just be redundant for the sake of redundancy and I think the author, Jesus, had more in mind when he said these words. He also preceded them by the phrase "These will go away into". This idea of eternal punishment is something that they go away into which makes it different than the idea of an electric chair or being killed. Otherwise the phrase might have been "They will be given eternal punishment or eternal life"
How do you see the phrase "They will go away into" impacting Matt 25:46?
I think it would be great if others would join in to the discussion on either side but maybe we can just hope that they will be reading and thinking on their own
I don't think he was being redundant. We're talking about death after a resurrection - therefore He's making sure everyone realizes this death is final.
I don't see anything significant in "they will go away into" - just the language he chose to use.
I wish others would participate too but I think the topic disturbs them. I've gotten a few emails that say they are following the conversation but don't have anything to add.
Are you going to comment on the eternal soul?
The concept of an eternal soul is not found in scripture in the form of "Every living human created by God has an soul that is eternal" That does not by itself mean that the soul is not eternal. As an example there is no scripture that clearly states that the trinity is Preincarnate God the father, plus the preincarnate God the Son plus the preincarnate God the holy spirit. But that does not mean that the trinity does not exist. The doctrine of the trinity is a complex one as is the concept of an eternal soul.
By the way, how do you know when language is important. You have spent a lot of time talking about verses you take at face value and words that prove your point but then you say
"I don't see anything significant in "they will go away into" - just the language he chose to use."
That doesn't seem to be in concert with the rest of your discussion.
I think at this point it is worth pointing out that our job as Christians is 2-fold (if I can summarize it into 2 points). 1. Major on the Majors and minor on the minors and 2. Obey the great commission and go out in the world and make disciples. As long as we are in agreement on the Major issues, Christ died, Christ rose from the dead, Christ paid for our sins, our job is to put our trust in Christ and accept his forgiveness, exchange our resume for His and receive the gift of eternal life and then live a life that bears fruit (sorry for the run-on sentence) then the rest of this is a fun doctrinal discussion. I say this for our benefit and those that might be reading so that the focus remains Christ. Sort of like the Jehovah Witness couple that came to our door to talk about creation and I said that is not important, what do you think about Christ because the rest of the discussions pale in comparison
By my saying I didn't see the significance - I just meant that had He said "they shall be given" or "they shall receive" or "they will be delivered unto" - any of these would mean the same thing. I used to think "eternal punishment" meant eternal suffering in hell. When I thought that - I didn't think it because He said "they will go away into". I thought it because every church I ever attended said that's what He meant.
The eternal soul concept is due mostly to Plato (around 300 BC). This was a widely accepted view at the time of Christ. I will disagree with you on whether the Bible says the soul is eternal; Ezekiel 18 says the soul that sins it shall die. Jesus said souls can be destroyed in hell (Matt 10:28). So I think the Bible says that a soul that has sinned does not have immortality.
Like I said in my original post - I don't expect anyone to change their mind based on this. I just want everyone to consider why they believe what they do - and pray about it - that's all. Do you know what one of my biggest struggles with was for accepting this doctrine? That I have to believe differently on this than C.S. Lewis, Andy Stanley, Billy Graham and other true heroes of the Christian faith. I want to switch back so I can agree with them - but I can't because I don't believe it to be true.
Funny - I had Jehovah's witnesses knock on my door 2 weeks ago! I talked to them for about 15 mins and had a great discussion. They were very knowledgeable and very nice people. If you know any - email them and let's discuss why Jesus is God (or is not God per their view).
In conclusion I would say that there is a danger in disagreement with many of the "heros of the faith" as you call them. It doesn't mean that we will agree with them all the time (for instance I disagree with infant baptism which Calvin and Luther agree with) but it should make us pause when we disagree with a majority of Christian leaders of the faith lest we create a new doctrine of our own that is not correct even though it sounds right.
Until the next topic :)
Jim - was reading Luke 20 in my devotions this morning:
34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Hmmm.....angels cannot die (per the above). People considered "worthy" are now given this status (which means they previously didn't have it) and are called God's children. Revelation says angels & Satan will burn forever & ever (makes sense they are angels and cannot die). Just thought I'd throw one more log on the fire (bad pun intended).
Read this from John Piper today...remembered this thread :)
After death, is there a final chance to be saved?
No.
The picture in the Bible is that the rich man went to Hades, Lazarus went to the bosom of Abraham, and a great gulf was fixed. "You cannot come from there to here. He cannot come from here to you" (Luke 16:26). It's over.
There is no indication in the Bible that there's a purgatory or that there's a chance that God would let you be saved.
I can think of one exception, and it's only an exception if you conceive of it a certain way—namely, infants. I believe that infants are saved, that they don't go to hell who die.
It's a long argument. But when people ask me, "So, are they already saved? Are they born again? Have they believed? You believe that regeneration happens through faith. They haven't believed yet, because they're little babies. So how are they saved, if they're not regenerate since they haven't believed? Where do they get saved if you say they're saved?"
And I back away from those questions because my answer to why I think they're saved isn't based on how they get saved.
I speculate about God instantaneously causing little babies to come into their maturity when they die—I don't know what that would be, a 35 year-old mentality or something—and that immediately they are believers. But all that is speculation, and that's another issue.
I think God's justice in Romans 1:18-21 implies that babies who do not have the resources to construe revelation will not be held accountable for their fallenness. They will be saved by Jesus.
But for everybody else, there is only one opportunity to be saved. And that is: Believe on the Lord Jesus now, and you will be saved.
I agree with Piper on all of the above (except his use of that parable, because that wasn't even the point of the parable) but I agree with the rest of his commentary.
Just because you cannot be saved once you die has nothing to do with hell being eternal. You're just dead.
so please do tell...what is the point of the parable? Just on the surface when given the choice between Larry and Piper on interpretation issues...whom would I choose...ha! As we have seen even John Calvin got it wrong once in a while. We are all human
Larry, not again? I thought I had you saved several weeks ago :o)
LOL! Jim that was really funny – seriously that was great!
First of all – remember that people were saved during the 1400+ years before Calvin showed up. Then remember that Calvin was a murderer who burned people at the stake for not going along with his point of view. Forgive me if I don’t exalt him to apostolic status and if because of that I don’t always take Piper at 100% – but I should have posted this on the other thread.
Rich man = Jews but specifically Judah (signified by purple which is Kingly). Judah had 5 brothers (unless you think Jesus just throws details like this in just for fun).
Lazarus = Lost people, gentile, heathen, spiritually poverty stricken
Dogs = other gentiles in Lazarus’ position. Jesus used this term before for gentiles.
Jews had God all to themselves. Occasionally the gentiles got some “crumbs” from Jews regarding God but not much. All of a sudden Christ shows up and look who accepts him – the gentiles. Now the positions are reversed. Look at other parables that say this too (Wedding Banquet, Vineyard, etc).
Do people go straight to hell when they die or do they get judged at the end of the age? (Matthew 13:40-42). Can you really talk back & forth to people in hell from heaven? Does Abraham’s bosom mean heaven?
By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus taught His hearers that, contrary to the prevailing view, wealth was not necessarily an indicator of divine favor, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgment upon a person. Neither person in the parable is said to be “good” or “bad”; why do we assume the rich person was bad?
Jesus was also seeking to educate the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by birthright. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," just as the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation.
The point or key to this parable is in verse 31. Seems like it pretty much came true unless you know a lot of Jews that accept Jesus.
Craig - I just can't help it - sorry!
And by the way - regarding infants / babies and the post Chuck put up there and regarding Craig's question - why does Piper not say that the elect babies go to heaven and the non-elect do not? Limited atonement would only allow for the elect ones.
Wow...who would have thought you would be comparing the apostle Paul with Calvin :) although not their best attribute.
To your point on Piper. He is an evangelist who understands that the Gospel applies to all and he also believes in election etc. You seem to think that if you have one there is no use for the other
Jim - I like Piper! Don't get me wrong on that. Your post suggested that Larry's interpretation would most likely be wrong because Piper said differently. I was defending the fact that we are all men (Larry, Piper and Calvin included) and subject to error.
Craig - nice try! I'm saying Piper is being inconsistent and wanting to have his cake and eat it too. He's fine with adults in Africa who haven't heard the Gospel going to hell, but not with a baby (he can't stomach that thought, so he creates an exception). At least he admits it's speculation and for that he deserves credit. TULIP provides no avenue for this - that was my entire point.
I agree babies are saved. I would use the same Scripture you did regarding David as proof along with Jesus' special love for children.
Looks like once again I'll point out Scripture regarding eternal soul, angels cannot die, etc and no one will challenge me!
Larry-as far as challenging you on eternal soul of unbelievers, we went through all this weeks ago. I'm to exhausted to type the same things again :o)
Craig - ok we can quit. I just read Luke 20 yesterday and I had never examined those verses closely enough before.
I'll post a new topic.
What about Luke 20?
Scroll up to my comment at 3:27 yesterday where I said:
"Jim - was reading Luke 20 in my devotions this morning:"