Christian Giving
My church handed out free copies of the book, The Blessed Life by Robert Morris as we were leaving one Sunday a few months ago. In this book, a view is presented that the tithe should be an active part of every Christian’s walk with God. He cites many examples where he himself (Robert Morris) has tested God in this (citing Malachi 3:10) and God has proven faithful. He also gives examples of other cases where people trusted God with what seemed like unreasonably generous giving and were blessed by God for doing so.
A friend of mine gave me a copy of chapter 24 of a book Decision Making and the Will of God that pretty much says that the tithe is obsolete and that it went to supporting a temple system that is no longer in place today. Since the mosaic law is no longer binding for Christians, the tithe is not binding either, and that Christians should give whatever they can “cheerfully” give (per 2 Cor 9:7). God will lay a certain dollar amount on your heart and you should give that cheerfully would be the summary of this chapter.
So what are most Christians doing today? Neither one evidently. I’m reading Passing the Plate by Christian Smith and Michael Emerson. Per this report, 22% of American Christians give absolutely nothing to any charity. 71% of the remaining 78% Christians give less than 2% of their take home income to charity (this includes money given to church). That leaves a pretty thin 7% of Christians to support ministry. The reasons given by Christians surveyed varied greatly but most of it boils down to being financially strapped. We “can’t afford to give” because we owe payments for the 2nd car, bought season tickets to football teams, overspent on family vacations and bought way too big a house. So we can’t give anything but we can pray for those poor people – right? God will take care of them, He knows their situation – right? When Jesus told us to feed the poor, he meant for us to pay taxes to government so they can do it – right? Yes, Yes, I’m sure it’s the people who didn’t pay enough taxes to the government that he’s talking about in Matt 25:31-46 that didn’t clothe or feed the poor…
A friend of mine gave me a copy of chapter 24 of a book Decision Making and the Will of God that pretty much says that the tithe is obsolete and that it went to supporting a temple system that is no longer in place today. Since the mosaic law is no longer binding for Christians, the tithe is not binding either, and that Christians should give whatever they can “cheerfully” give (per 2 Cor 9:7). God will lay a certain dollar amount on your heart and you should give that cheerfully would be the summary of this chapter.
So what are most Christians doing today? Neither one evidently. I’m reading Passing the Plate by Christian Smith and Michael Emerson. Per this report, 22% of American Christians give absolutely nothing to any charity. 71% of the remaining 78% Christians give less than 2% of their take home income to charity (this includes money given to church). That leaves a pretty thin 7% of Christians to support ministry. The reasons given by Christians surveyed varied greatly but most of it boils down to being financially strapped. We “can’t afford to give” because we owe payments for the 2nd car, bought season tickets to football teams, overspent on family vacations and bought way too big a house. So we can’t give anything but we can pray for those poor people – right? God will take care of them, He knows their situation – right? When Jesus told us to feed the poor, he meant for us to pay taxes to government so they can do it – right? Yes, Yes, I’m sure it’s the people who didn’t pay enough taxes to the government that he’s talking about in Matt 25:31-46 that didn’t clothe or feed the poor…
Wow...great post! Lots to think about there, reminds me of the book our church handed out, The Treasure Principle.
We kind of struggled with this the past couple of years, our family decided to adopt from China in 06. Our biggest hold up was financial, we finally decided to dive in with both feet and let God worry about the finances.
Four years later...(was supposed to take 9-14 months and 22k) we are 3 times the wait and dollar amount!
We haven't tithed in 3 years, our tithe is going to bring our daughter home, which we feel is a mission field that God has called us to. I'm not sure if it is right or wrong (we did discuss it with one of our pastors) but we are doing it in good conscience.
People's reluctance to give usually stems form a very low view of God. In that I mean that there view of God is more focused on what God can do for them as opposed to being in AWE of the sovereignity and power of God and being totally humbled that we are His sons through Christ. The tithe is obselete as a requirement but the concept of to whom much is given much is required is not obselete. I would say that the tithe is a baseline minimum for giving today. It is a sad thing that Christians do not give to ministry in the way that God gives to them as if He doesn't own all the money and didn't create everything we have. God promises us that He will meet all our needs but He never said that He would agree with us as to what our needs are.
I say, increase your view of God and your giving will come along in proportion to that.
Jim, I agree with you. I think the problem is chronic unbelief. People don't really believe everything belongs to God. I talked with deacons on boards of 2 churches recently and they agreed with those stats I posted. How can you say you love God and yet give Him back nothing or practically nothing?
Chuck - did you come to your decision because you felt it a better use of God's money than what your church would do with it?
Several factors, but basically sat down with one of our pastors and asked if we started using our "tithe" toward bringing our daughter home how he viewed that bibically.
It was not going to be a "long term" decision, basically pay for the adoption, continue giving to church like we always have. 3 1/2 years later though we are still trying to pay for the adoption. Like I said, i'm sure some would disagree with what we are doing, just saying we are :)
I totally agree with Jim's post, I do have problems sometimes with how "man" uses what belongs to God. I have always felt much better helping someone in need anonymously than worrying about how much my giving statement looked at the end of the year.
I would have to disagree with paying for adoption as a ministry expense and therefore as a substitute for giving. In part adoption is a ministry but it is also a self-serving ministry meaning that we get something out of it also (a child). Giving to God's ministry is with not expectation of return on that gift and is done knowing that we are called by God to give to His work. I do feel for your situation as we have a wonderful 8 month old son that we adopted and the 17K that we spent was a significant chunk of money! And I understand that waiting can be trying at times! But is God not in control of that situation also? Is He not sovereign over all of it including your finances? What do you plan to do with the tax credit of 11K+ that you will get when the adoption is final? I don't really need to know but that is another example of how I think paying for an adoption is outside of a ministry gift since it involves a return on the investment.
Hope that makes sense
Jim - good "devils advocate" reply but let me ask you - is giving to your local church not self serving? They take the money given and service their members and if some is left over (ha!), they give to missions or maybe help others in their local community. To me, gifts to the church you attend are also self serving.
True?
cshellpace said...
Absolutely makes sense, not saying I totally disagree.
We have discussed the tax credit, we will pay any debt from adoption and then we will give it to our adoption fund at church to help another family doing the same thing.
The "self serving" thing i somewhat take exception to. It took me a good two years of the Lord working on my heart before I came along side of my wife's heart in the area of adoption. Even after this decision, the Lord used several circumstances to totally break my wife and I of anything self-serving in us. I believe this is why our "wait" has been so long, we were not ready for this journey until God had our total attention.
I'd give all the money away to not go through what I have in the last several months...i find none of it "self-serving"...at all.
Let me clarify that by "self serving" I don't mean in the typical use of the term which has a negative context. It is more of the context of giving to your own ministry via the hopeful adoption not God's ministry at your church or via some missionary team, etc. The question now moves to the following. What are the biblical examples of giving that we see (old and new testament) and what can we deduce from them? Then in that context does your adoption example fit within a biblical context. Thanks for allow us to debate what I am sure you have spent many hours thinking about by the way.
And Larry, you have a good point, in one sense we do receive something back from our church in terms of sermons, programs, etc. So let's put that and the above in the light of "what is the biblical model for giving and what does scripture call us to do?"
Time to get some chapter and verses going in the comments!!
Chapters and verses? Where do I start?
Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Luke 14:13-14
13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
Matthew 25:41-45
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Luke 12:33-34
33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:2-4
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
So....based on this....there are rewards for giving to the poor and consequences for not. Does anyone think that giving to your church is the same as giving to the needy? Is giving of time the same as giving money?
It seems that we have an issue of giving and of obedience. The concept of the tithe (what is expected) and the giving to the poor, etc that goes beyond that.
Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.
—Proverbs 3:9-10
Whoever brings blessing will be enriched,
and one who waters will himself be watered.
—Proverbs 11:25
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord,
and he will repay him for his deed.
—Proverbs 19:17
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor
will himself call out and not be answered.
—Proverbs 21:13
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed,
for he shares his bread with the poor.
—Proverbs 22:9
Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the Lord of hosts.
—Malachi 3:8-11
If we read all these Scriptures in total (NT and OT), it is apparent a lot more emphasis is on giving to the needy rather than giving to programs that benefit us directly (such as giving to church/storehouse). I'm not saying not to give to church because we definitely need to, I'm saying that giving to church and then washing your hands of other giving is not enough.
I do think time is money. If you volunteer your time to help the needy - I think that's the same thing. I would say adoption falls squarely into this category as it's helping someone in desperate need.
The local church needs our support, totally on board with that. Also, on board with Larry's, "that isn't where it should end".
Some people have money and the more they give the more "they feel good". I would take the family who doesn't have much in $$$ to give, but gives of themselves and their time every day of the week.
For me, this area comes down to the heart, only God and that person know what/how they give and their heart reason for doing it. I'm going to worry about my heart and let Jim do the judging :) (totally kidding, enjoy the discussion)
One of the verses that makes it clear to me if from Malachi referenced above.
"Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house."
From this verse it is clear to me that time does not equate to tithes and contributions. It is sure that God wants our time also but not as a substitute for our tithes and contributions. Where we put our money really defines where our heart is and I think that is the main reason behind giving.
In all of this it is not in my mind a quantity of money given but a sacrificial attitude that is important when giving the money. Just like prayer the whole subject of giving is not about what God needs to know or the money God needs. It is what we need to keep our heart and mind totally dependent on God. Without that dependence we lean away from God and towards sin.
You a member of Joel Osteen's church? So money = dependance on God? If i take my "tithe" for this week and decide that I know a single mother that is barely getting by and want to make her mortgage payment for her....? God honoring or no, b/c the church didn't get it?
HA! I am much closer to John Calvin than Joel Osteen. Money does not equal dependence on God but a sacrificial attitude when giving to God does equate to dependence on God. We need to always remember who gave us the money in the first place.
If i take my "tithe" for this week and decide that I know a single mother that is barely getting by and want to make her mortgage payment for her....? God honoring or no, b/c the church didn't get it?
God Honoring -- definately
Where I got time = money:
1. I can get a 2nd job and give 100% of all I earn on that job to the ministry.
2. I can take the time I would have spent on my 2nd job and donate all that time as a volunteer to a ministry.
Where is the difference? Either one is a sacrifice of your assets (time or money).
I understand your point (where your treasure is, that's where your heart is) but time is also a treasure. I am personally very guilty of not donating enough time to ministry.
I don't think the biblical directive is Time OR Money. I think that it is Time AND Money. We can be guilty of falling down on either one of the them.
I agree with you - we have to give both. I don't think they have to be in equal proportion though. If God gifts one person with skills that allow them to earn money easily, it would seem like they should use their gift to earn money and financially support ministries. If another person is a great comforter or mentor or has the gift of hospitality or whatever, (and is not so good at earning money) it would seem like they're time gifts would be worth more to ministry than their monetary gifts.
Just FYI...I've gotten 2 emails from 2 different people that say they cannot post. I'm looking into why that might be....
I don't think it is a matter of the amount. If someone earns 15K per year they are under the same directive by Scripture to give back to God as someone who earns 150K per year. The first person will probably have given 10% of the second person but the point is that they should both give back to God. In reality it might even be better for the person earning more to give a higher percentage than the person earning less but both must give according to the bible.
I do think 10% is a minimum. If God owns it all what can I possibly hold so dear that it inhibits my ability to respond to His leading. Our church is full of 2%ers and its killing us.
Not sure what we are debating anymore, totally agree with your last post Jim. Is Larry saying he can substitute time with money? I just am saying i think my "tithe", money God has given me that i'm giving back, can go to more than just my church's offering plate and still be considered my offering of thanks back to God.
The "man made" traditions that I have been brought up on that i have never questioned in my life are my daily struggles now of why I actually do them. I understand we are all in different places in our journey, but think it is great to talk/dicuss them. I really like being made to think why I am doing something, and not just told this is how it is.
Craig, What is your scriptural basis for saying that the 10% is a minimum or is it your personal opinion (which is a good one at that)
cshellspace: I am not sure what we are debating either but it would be good at this point to frame a statement that would describe our biblical basis for giving and show the verses to support the position.
Is Christ Lord of my life? If so, the discussion is not how much should I give, or how much am I expected to give. But how much do I keep? isn't it all His in the first place?
Jim, strictly Old Testament. I realize we are no longer under the law. That was satisfied by the blood of Christ. However, the principals remain. Only this time I'm not keeping them to gain salvation. I'm keeping them because of Grace. The Old Testament provided for a tithe, a temple tax, and sometimes a little more. I believe their giving ranged anywhere from 20 to 26%. We now live with the realization (if saved) that my eternal destiny is settled. Imagine living like some I know who live on 10% and give God 90%.
Craig,
So if the law was satisfied by the blood of Christ, then what is our New Testament directive for giving? What standard should we apply? I think that it is important to know what books/verses lead us to our conclusion so that it is not just an opinion (even if that happens to be correct)
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Playing devil's advocate -according to this - if you can't tithe cheerfully or without feeling compelled, should you give?
Was just soaking on this, from The Message..
2 Corinthians 9 (The Message)
2 Corinthians 9
1-2If I wrote any more on this relief offering for the poor Christians, I'd be repeating myself. I know you're on board and ready to go. I've been bragging about you all through Macedonia province, telling them, "Achaia province has been ready to go on this since last year." Your enthusiasm by now has spread to most of them.
3-5Now I'm sending the brothers to make sure you're ready, as I said you would be, so my bragging won't turn out to be just so much hot air. If some Macedonians and I happened to drop in on you and found you weren't prepared, we'd all be pretty red-faced—you and us—for acting so sure of ourselves. So to make sure there will be no slipup, I've recruited these brothers as an advance team to get you and your promised offering all ready before I get there. I want you to have all the time you need to make this offering in your own way. I don't want anything forced or hurried at the last minute.
6-7Remember: A stingy planter gets a stingy crop; a lavish planter gets a lavish crop. I want each of you to take plenty of time to think it over, and make up your own mind what you will give. That will protect you against sob stories and arm-twisting. God loves it when the giver delights in the giving.
8-11God can pour on the blessings in astonishing ways so that you're ready for anything and everything, more than just ready to do what needs to be done. As one psalmist puts it,
He throws caution to the winds,
giving to the needy in reckless abandon.
His right-living, right-giving ways
never run out, never wear out.
This most generous God who gives seed to the farmer that becomes bread for your meals is more than extravagant with you. He gives you something you can then give away, which grows into full-formed lives, robust in God, wealthy in every way, so that you can be generous in every way, producing with us great praise to God.
12-15Carrying out this social relief work involves far more than helping meet the bare needs of poor Christians. It also produces abundant and bountiful thanksgivings to God. This relief offering is a prod to live at your very best, showing your gratitude to God by being openly obedient to the plain meaning of the Message of Christ. You show your gratitude through your generous offerings to your needy brothers and sisters, and really toward everyone. Meanwhile, moved by the extravagance of God in your lives, they'll respond by praying for you in passionate intercession for whatever you need. Thank God for this gift, his gift. No language can praise it enough!
Jim, Malachi 3 for starters. I am working so I don' have the time to list others. I'll try to get that later.
cshellpace, what version are you using?
The Message (i'm sure Jim is judging as I type =) )
Never judge, only sharpen each other.
Just messin ... if it makes you question,think,respond it can only be helpful I would conclude.
Ok - to bring this back around - 2 Cor 9:7 says to give what you have decided in your heart to give. Chuck made it very clear that he has a clear conscience in keeping his tithe back and putting it towards his adoption. So he has decided in his heart to give this.
Why can he not claim that verse and be vindicated for what he's doing? If you're going to claim that Malachi 3 must be followed, then you need to claim to keep the Sabbath as well.
Thus the danger of the blog. Anything anyone says is now met with a different interpretation of a different passage regarding a different topic for a different reason. And on and on it goes. I can justify anything I do with my money to be somehow directed towards God's approval. But, if we all give in other direction than the church, there won't be any churches. Maybe that's a good thing. We can go back to Acts 2 and just meet in houses that we have purchased with the tithe I kept. (just having fun, don't get mad :o))
I get the fun comments so no worries about the "judging" thing. Just don't try to do any real bible study with "The message". Save that for the NASB or other translations that are closer to the Greek/Hebrew.
I found an article from John Piper, a preacher that is one of my favorites and is very committed to the ministry God has given him. Instead of writing a very wording commentary on the subject I thought I would provide a link in case anyone has an interest in reading.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1995/923_Toward_the_Tithe_and_Beyond/
Love Piper. Also been using the ESV this year. Love it.
Read Piper's blog every morning...he is not a huge fan of The Message either :)
Craig - very good reply. If we go to a church and consume the resources of the church we should support it - otherwise there would be no churches.
Jim - I enjoyed that article very much. I read the book of Matthew often (it's one of my favorite books) and I've never looked at Matt 23:23 that way until reading that article.
Ok - I think we've exhausted this subject. Jim is picking next subject, so I'll post his discussion post as soon as he sends it to me.
I noticed a verse that would be useful to this discussion that none of us brought up. It is Galations 6:6
"The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him." NASB
This would be our local church since that is where we receive most of our biblical teaching from...and if not, why not go somewhere else :)
Good things is referring to money not time. Whether it is the widow's mite or something larger is not the point, the fact that God tells us to share our money with the church is the point.
Jim - I 100% agree we should give to the church we attend. I believe that if you honestly seek God in how much that dollar amount is, he will tell you.
Why would "good things" not include time?
I think that we should share our time with our church but this verse is directed at giving back to the person who instructed you not the church as a whole even though we give to the Pastor through the church. In this case and especially given the context of the early 1st century church I think we can conclude that Paul is talking about money here.
IMO total "stretch" on your interpretation...for not liking Petersen and "The Message" you sure do sound like him. ;)
Are baby's covered? Question; if baby's are saved if they die as babies, would you agree there is two ways to get to heaven? Accept the blood of Christ as payment or die as babies. Now, I really believe that baby's do go to heaven. The only reason is because of what David said (not near a Bible for the verse). When his infant son dies he said, "he can't come to me but one day I will go to him." Perhaps God is giving insight into His heart regarding the death of babies.
not much explanation on why it is a stretch??? or is there not one!
Maybe an excerpt from Piper will help you get the picture I was trying to describe. He is much more articulate than I. This is from www.desiringGod.org
Bearing the Financial Burden of Teachers
That's what is at stake here. Now let's follow Paul's thought as it develops beginning in verse 6. You recall that in verse 2 he had said, "Bear one another's burdens." Verse 6 seems to give another example of burden-bearing—namely, the financial burden of Christian teachers. "Let him who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches." One way to bear the burdens of those who carry major responsibilities of teaching in the church is to support them financially so that they can be free for prayer and study. Evidently there was some problem with this in Galatia. Perhaps they had made a good start, and now they were growing weary in well-doing—the well-doing of supporting the teaching elders in the church. Perhaps some were arguing that they are free in Christ and can use their money for other things. "Who needs teaching, anyway? We know enough of the truth. Money is scarce; these are hard times." We don't know what they were saying, but we do know that of all the burdens Paul could have mentioned, he chose to mention the material burden of those who teach God's Word.
He had learned the principle from Jesus. When Jesus sent out the 70 to preach, he told them not to take their own food because "the laborer deserves his wages." Paul picks this up in 1 Timothy 5:17, 18, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching; for the scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,' and, 'The laborer deserves his wages.'" Probably the closest parallel to Galatians 6:6 is 1 Corinthians 9:11 where Paul says, "If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?"
The Ministry of the Word and Giving
I see four implications of Galatians 6:6 that I want to mention briefly. First, teaching the Word of God is essential in the church. We will not know the Lord as we ought if we go without sound teaching. Worship will become shallow, affections will become frothy, and obedience will languish where the whole counsel of God is not taught. Paul considered it essential.
Second, those who carry the main responsibility of teaching need freedom to study and meditate and pray. Finding the meaning of biblical texts, discovering how that meaning fits with the totality of revelation, and seeing its relationship to contemporary life week in and week out is a glorious calling—but it takes much time and effort. One of the things that makes me happy with my ministry at Bethlehem is that most of you know this and do not begrudge me the time I need for study. So that you'll know, in general, I devote Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday mornings to prayer and study and meditation. Then, all day Friday and Saturday I prepare for the two messages on Sunday. There are inevitable interruptions for crisis situations (like weddings!). That's OK. I just thank God for your support in the part I have to play in this church.
Third, it follows that pastor-teachers should be paid so that they don't have to do other work to support themselves. Some, like Paul, may renounce this right, but those who are taught the Word ought to be eager to free up their teachers financially. And for that I thank you, too!
Fourth, when you give of your money to support the teaching ministry, you are fulfilling the law of Christ according to verse 2 (helping bear the teacher's burden), and you are not growing weary in well-doing (according to verse 9), but instead laying hold on eternal life. So when Paul says in verses 9 and 10 that we should not grow weary in well-doing and that we should do good to all especially to those of the household of faith, he has in mind at least the use of our money to support those who teach us the Word of God.