The True Gospel (Written by Jim)
This post is by Jim:
I believe that it is important to have a complete understanding of what
the Gospel is, what makes up the Gospel and what becomes of the Gospel
if the essential elements are taken away from it. Consider a sporting
event with the banner John 3:16. Obviously it is from the bible but
does it represent the complete Gospel? Consider these quotes from
famous TV Word of Faith preachers.
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of
redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before
He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant.
Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of
redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", ( Believer's
Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
"spiritual death means something more than separation from God.
Spiritual death also means having Satan's nature... Jesus tasted
death--spiritual death--for every man." K. Hagin, The Name of Jesus,
1981) p.31.
Do we find these quote disturbing? If so what does it do to the Gospel?
In short I think it is vital to understand the components of the
biblical Gospel and what it does and doesn't contain. It may be simple
to some but nonetheless profoundly important
I believe that it is important to have a complete understanding of what
the Gospel is, what makes up the Gospel and what becomes of the Gospel
if the essential elements are taken away from it. Consider a sporting
event with the banner John 3:16. Obviously it is from the bible but
does it represent the complete Gospel? Consider these quotes from
famous TV Word of Faith preachers.
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of
redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before
He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant.
Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of
redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", ( Believer's
Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
"spiritual death means something more than separation from God.
Spiritual death also means having Satan's nature... Jesus tasted
death--spiritual death--for every man." K. Hagin, The Name of Jesus,
1981) p.31.
Do we find these quote disturbing? If so what does it do to the Gospel?
In short I think it is vital to understand the components of the
biblical Gospel and what it does and doesn't contain. It may be simple
to some but nonetheless profoundly important
I read this several months ago and come back to it often. Not sure most "christians", including myself really "get it"...
Never Let the Gospel Get Smaller
March 17, 2009 | By: John Piper
Category: Commentary
Here is a simple exhortation that I have been trying to implement in our family:
Seek to see and feel the gospel as bigger as years go by rather than smaller.
Our temptation is to think that the gospel is for beginners and then we go on to greater things. But the real challenge is to see the gospel as the greatest thing—and getting greater all the time.
The Gospel gets bigger when, in your heart,
grace gets bigger;
Christ gets greater;
his death gets more wonderful;
his resurrection gets more astonishing;
the work of the Spirit gets mightier;
the power of the gospel gets more pervasive;
its global extent gets wider;
your own sin gets uglier;
the devil gets more evil;
the gospel's roots in eternity go deeper;
its connections with everything in the Bible and in the world get stronger;
and the magnitude of its celebration in eternity gets louder.
So keep this in mind: Never let the gospel get smaller in your heart.
Pray that it won’t. Read solid books on it. Sing about it. Tell someone about it who is ignorant or unsure about it.
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel.... For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Jim I find those quotes disturbing. "It is finished!" - a universalist will claim that means that now everyone is saved because His work is done. This guy claims His work is not done even though the veil ripped in 2 at that moment signifying we can now access God directly without a priest.
The next quote regarding spiritual death - does he provide chapter and verse to backup those statements? I doubt it but even if he did, they could be picked apart (I might just be the guy so inclined to do so).
The Gospel is beautifully simple but we unnecessarily complicate it.
I agree they are quite disturbing. What is more disturbing is that I listened to this crowd while I was in high school and part of college. Glad to be away from them now.
What about John 3 16 at the sports games? Useful or a hinderance? Does it portray the whole Gospel or only part.
If we were to explain the gospel to a child (ours or not), what is the basic Gospel that we would describe without leaving anything out.
I'll bite Jim....
First, i will not begin to judge (there it is again) the person holding up the sign and his/her heart motive.
Second, it does nothing in my opinion to further a relationship with Jesus Christ. But rather turn people away as they see another "religious freak". (But hey, wasn't John the Baptist a religious freak? Guess a blog debate for another day)
Third, I have often wondered how many people have seen a sign like that and was curious enough to google it and see what it says...was a seed planted? Can God use that?
Fourth, and the most humbling, I have turned my nose up at "religious freaks" spreading the "gospel", and never took a second to look inward at what i'm doing to spread the gospel...
Flame away!
Chuck - good comments. I feel though that it definitely does more damage than good in today's time. Just like the guy holding the sign at the street corner "Repent - the end is near" and shouting hellfire is not leading people anywhere near Jesus Christ, even though his message may be true. That being said - I'm with you - it takes guts to do either of those things and they only thing they're going to receive for doing it is vitriol.
Jim to answer your question, I'm assuming we're talking about a child capable of at least understanding what sin is. Then once sin is explained and they can accept that they are a sinner, you can move to how awesome and holy God is and how His perfection won't allow sin in His presence but He still loves us so much that He sent Jesus to pay the price for you.
Of course if you grew up in a fundamentalist environment, you also have to scare the "hell" out of them too so that they get "saved" out of pure terror for the alternative rather than falling in love with the Savior.
Allow me to hit and run on this sign deal. Do we believe in sovereign grace? Do we believe in limited atonement? Do we embrace Romans 8, 9, Eph.1:4, 1 Pet 1:2? We need to have a clear understanding of this before we can even debate signs in the stands.
Craig - I think election is a completely different discussion. The topic here is the true gospel and does holding a sign in the crowd help or hinder the message.
Come on Larry, I know I can get you off the subject :o) But just for fun...if you believe in election, is the sign necessary? (I'll confine my humor)Sorry all.
I say Craig gets next blog post :) Don't derail this one!
Forgot about the kids side of the question...
I do NOT want to raise my kids the way I was raised. I want them to know the why's and ask questions and eventually decide for themselves what they believe. I could get my kids to believe Nemo the fish was God if I wanted to, they are easily swayed. That is the point, give them a good foundation of right and wrong, point them to scripture, hopefully see by example from mom and dad...one day decide what they believe.
My two oldest made professions of faith at 5 and 6...we really don't make a big deal about it or always bring it up...one day they will say, yes that was the day or nah, i was just a kid. For what its worth my son definitely seemed a changed boy, gentle and meekness, tender heart...could be the real deal. My daughter...umm, lets just say she is alot like her day DOH!
Anyway, that is my take.
Craig I am tempted to reply to your bait - but I'll just give you 2 Cor 5:11 and we can save it for another post.
Chuck was it easy or hard to get your kids to recognize that they were sinners? Did you feel that they could understand the concept of needing a Savior from their condition at age 5 or 6?
Our lives should lead people to Christ. People should look at us and think "What's different about that person?" or "I'd like to be more like that person, they have something I don't". Can anyone make the case that holding the John 3:16 sign would do exactly that? I'm thinking it does the opposite and they think "Christians are so weird, I don't want to act like that". So I think more people are turned away, than "seeds" are planted (IMHO).
Larry,
They definitely know right from wrong...much younger than that they knew, you have a kid, right? :)
The need for a Saviour might be a bit more in the air. Personally i don't think a kid at that age can grasp everything...so do we say the simple Gospel is "i believe" and that is it? Because i know my son "believes"?
To your last paragraph...100% agree.
"Permit little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me; for such is the kingdom of heaven." Mt.19:14 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever, therefore, shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven...Mt.18:2-4 Don't sell your kids short. Oh that we could be simple again and accept things the way they are offered!
Nice Craig
"Come on Larry, I know I can get you off the subject :o) But just for fun...if you believe in election, is the sign necessary? (I'll confine my humor)Sorry all."
Of course with a statement like that it shows that the author of the statement does not understand election...but that is for another time and I dare say that the blog is probably not the place for that conversation since none of us have that much time to type :) Maybe a skype discussion.
I know that my little Patrick (9mo old) is my most amazing little heathen and I pray for his salvation each day which works perfectly with my understanding of election.
but
We have discussed this subject without actually saying what the Gospel is? We are assuming that we know what it is and it is sort of like asking what 2 + 2 is. 22 right, ha!
My point about John 3:16 was not necessarily the person holding the sign but was the 1 verse a complete Gospel. We know that God can work miracles out of all our sinful lives so it should be no surprise when someone is saved out of a bad form of evangelism. That should not make us think that we should continue in that form of evangelism.
Anyway, back to the point. Can John 3:16 present a complete Gospel without Romans 3:23 - "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" (from my memory translation :))
Can the above 2 scriptures present the complete Gospel without presenting God's authority, His holiness?
Larry hinted at the complete Gospel
"I'm assuming we're talking about a child capable of at least understanding what sin is. Then once sin is explained and they can accept that they are a sinner, you can move to how awesome and holy God is and how His perfection won't allow sin in His presence but He still loves us so much that He sent Jesus to pay the price for you."
Larry: Can you explain sin without understanding authority and holiness?
One thought that occurs to me is that of Phil.1: and other passages where some preach out of selfish gain, or even to cause trouble. But Paul said, glory to God because at least the gospel is preached. If someone dressed wacky and holds a John 3:16 sign can we at least assume this key verse is out there and God will use it in some way since his word never comes back voide.
Craig - good way of looking at it. That way combined with what Chuck said about planting the seed, at least you can fathom some merit to doing it. I still think it hurts more than it helps.
Jim, those 2 verses combined aren't going to give you the "complete" gospel. If that's all you had you wouldn't even know Jesus' name! But you must recognize you are a sinner before you can be saved, otherwise you have no idea why you need to be saved.
As far as whether or not you can explain sin without understanding holiness or authority - I think you can get a shallow sense of it in this way. I was talking with someone last year who didn't believe in sin or sinners. So I asked him this, "what do you call it when you do something that you know you should not do (such as steal), but do it anyway". He said it was a crime but not a sin. When I asked about cheating on your wife (not a crime), he said it was a crime against her or against society.
My point? He knows it's wrong but "holiness" is not playing any part in his recognition of this.
Larry,
Exactly my point. Too many times in the world of Christianity people use 1 or 2 verses to establish as position on what the Gospel is in the course of evangelism and fall short. That is why my take on the Gospel is that it contains God's Holiness, God's Authority, Our sin depravity and therefore our need for a savior, and Christ's death and resurrection. If we can find away to communicate all of these concepts we can be sure we that we have communicated the entire Gospel
Ok - let's change all the John 3:16 signs to Luke 18:13
'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
Great pick Larry...that one would be great as well...
Soap Box:
This is why i can't stand religion or christians for the most part...we sit around arguing and debating on if a relgious freak with signs is really giving the whole gospel, if that music beat is ok with those words, if i'm elected or not, blah blah blah...will people are dying and going to hell (may be eternal or not:) )
I call myself a believer and can't stand it, what do you think people who don't know him think?
Eh, i need some pizza, see you tonight Larry.
yeah, because you wouldn't want to know what the real Gospel is, you wouldn't really want to be concerned about something so mundane as the central point of Christianity, you wouldn't actually want to use your brain to debate an important issue. Let's just sit around and eat Pizza and talk about how lovely things are :) Why should we bother with making sure we understand God's word anyway...He is just the creator of the universe after all and our savior assuming you have read that part of the Bible :)
That is the first post I've read from you that sounded from your heart...nice job! :)
hmmmm, pizza.
Ok - both of you have great points -but they are 2 different things.
Jim - are you suggesting that people cannot be saved unless they completely comprehend everything that went into atonement for sin? Or are you suggesting that more people would be saved if we did a better job of communicating the entire Gospel?
Chuck - I agree with you to a very large extent. We sit around with a dead corpse Jesus performing autopsies on every single blood vessel to dissect every teeny bit of information but don't "know" the alive Jesus. That's my issue with most Christians. They can quote Scripture after Scripture but he's not "alive" to them - he's a textbook of behavior. The closer I get to Him - the easier all the Scripture part becomes, and the issues I have melt away because I feel like I know Him (like I know my wife, not like I "know" Julius Caesar).
I greatly enjoy discussions like this. They sharpen me and they convict me to different points of view that maybe I missed or had some preconceived notion that stopped me from accepting it before.
My gut needs pizza like I need a hole in the head but I'll be there!
I would say that your salvation could be in question if your understanding of the Gospel is not accurate because it could be a false Gospel. To what extent and as to which situations that will be for Chuck to judge -- Ha!
Let's use a Catholic example. In the Catholic religion grace is given through the sacraments (i.e. baptism, etc). So if a person who believes what the Pope decreed then you could question the salvation. However, we all know many Catholics that don't even know what the Pope teaches and do understand the Gospel but just attend the masses. So there salvation could be true.
So then even though Jesus told the woman at the well she was forgiven and saved she really wasn't...cause i can assure you she didn't have the total gospel down at that point :)
You all have a great holiday weekend...i'll be on the street corner holding up my signs of the full gospel.
hmmm.
Jesus had the authority,
Jesus was/is Holy,
Jesus was/is the Son of God
Jesus has the power to forgive sins
The woman recognized this by admitting her sin.
She accepted Jesus' forgiveness
Sounds like a complete package to me :)
contrast with
Jim is not God
Chuck is Not Holy
Larry is not the Son of God
we are just messengers that have the burden of describing the whole Gospel to those we talk to
Enjoy the 4th
I thought about this thread quite a bit over the weekend.
Jim, I understand your point, but do we have that entire burden of "describing the whole Gospel" or is a large part of that the Holy Spirit's job to make someone grasp the entire concept? This is actually something I've struggled with and have come to this conclusion (I'm perfectly willing to consider alternate point of view here):
You can't describe Jesus with bullet points.
It doesn't work. Thousands of tracts have been distributed all over the world with the bullet point gospel - but you never get the real Jesus. You get the autopsied Jesus I referred to earlier.
So what is our evangelical role? I believe it's summed up nicely by St Francis of Assissi:
"Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."
Agreed, love that quote!
I think it is our burden to present the Whole Gospel. God's job through the Holy Spirit is to call His people to Himself. These 2 jobs work in concert with one another. I agree that we don't want the "autopsied" Jesus and it may not be possible to present the entire Gospel in one encounter but the real Jesus is present in the Gospel that contains God's authority, God's Holiness, Our Sin and need for repentance, and Jesus' payment for our sin on the cross. The Gospel defined this way I think should be our goal.
I too like that quote.