An honest view of Christianity from an outsiders perspective
What do outsiders think of Christians?
“Conservative, entrenched in their thinking, antigay, antichoice, angry, violent, illogical, empire builders; they want to convert everyone and they generally cannot live peaceably with anyone who doesn’t believe what they believe.” (unChristian by David Kinnaman, p26).
I don’t agree with everything about the above statement but even before reading this book, I have been very concerned that we are only known for what we are against and not known at all for what we are for. It’s pretty easy to see why the church isn’t reaching many outsiders, especially younger ones. This book focused on people ages 16-29 – check out their 6 most common objections:
1. Hypocritical
2. Too focused on getting converts (we always have an agenda)
3. Anti-homosexual
4. Sheltered (out of touch with reality, not willing to deal with real solutions to real problems)
5. Too political
6. Judgmental
What was remarkable to find out what that the vast majority of this age group had been/tried church for at least a little while, but then found out it wasn’t for them. So they actually showed up looking for Jesus, but didn’t find him at whatever church they attended.
When the researchers brought their findings and asked mainstream Christians what they thought of the results, many Christians wrote it off to the outsiders being “spiritually dead”, or “the blind can’t see.” This to me confirms #4 above perfectly.
In reaction to this, some Christians have taken the opposite extreme and hijacked Jesus by making him an open-minded, never-offend-anyone moral “teacher” instead of God. This book called this a “create-your-own Jesus” mindset; although much more socially acceptable today, this is not the Jesus of the Bible.
The solution seems clear to me. That list needs to be changed to loving, forgiving, compassionate, understanding, joyful, peaceful, patient, faithful, honest, giving, etc. If our list included those items (as commanded by Scripture) then maybe we’d actually be what Jesus intended.
“Conservative, entrenched in their thinking, antigay, antichoice, angry, violent, illogical, empire builders; they want to convert everyone and they generally cannot live peaceably with anyone who doesn’t believe what they believe.” (unChristian by David Kinnaman, p26).
I don’t agree with everything about the above statement but even before reading this book, I have been very concerned that we are only known for what we are against and not known at all for what we are for. It’s pretty easy to see why the church isn’t reaching many outsiders, especially younger ones. This book focused on people ages 16-29 – check out their 6 most common objections:
1. Hypocritical
2. Too focused on getting converts (we always have an agenda)
3. Anti-homosexual
4. Sheltered (out of touch with reality, not willing to deal with real solutions to real problems)
5. Too political
6. Judgmental
What was remarkable to find out what that the vast majority of this age group had been/tried church for at least a little while, but then found out it wasn’t for them. So they actually showed up looking for Jesus, but didn’t find him at whatever church they attended.
When the researchers brought their findings and asked mainstream Christians what they thought of the results, many Christians wrote it off to the outsiders being “spiritually dead”, or “the blind can’t see.” This to me confirms #4 above perfectly.
In reaction to this, some Christians have taken the opposite extreme and hijacked Jesus by making him an open-minded, never-offend-anyone moral “teacher” instead of God. This book called this a “create-your-own Jesus” mindset; although much more socially acceptable today, this is not the Jesus of the Bible.
The solution seems clear to me. That list needs to be changed to loving, forgiving, compassionate, understanding, joyful, peaceful, patient, faithful, honest, giving, etc. If our list included those items (as commanded by Scripture) then maybe we’d actually be what Jesus intended.
Oh boy, this is gonna be good.
1. Hypocritical - CHECK
2. Too focused on getting converts (we always have an agenda)- Agenda - CHECK
3. Anti-homosexual - Have to call sin, sin. Still need to show love though.
4. Sheltered (out of touch with reality, not willing to deal with real solutions to real problems)- CHECK
5. Too political - ehh, don't care :)
6. Judgmental - CHECK (see Jim's posts :) )
Even chuck makes a judgment as to what apples to buy in the store and what movies to watch. - HA!
1. Hypocritical - CHECK - it beats the PC stuff of the world
2. Too focused on getting converts (we always have an agenda) - CHECK
3. Anti-homosexual - Sin is Sin and God is quite clear on this one.
4. Sheltered (out of touch with reality, not willing to deal with real solutions to real problems) - debatable.
5. Too political - whatever
6. Judgmental - yep
There are only 2 teams in this world race. God's team and the Devil's Team. Which one are we on. God doesn't call us to be perceived by the world in a good light as they define it. He calls us to be perceived in a good light as He defines it in scripture
LOL...Jim with all "truth", but not really speaking to the problem.
So do you say, "who cares what non-christians think about me, I live for God?"
or do you say, "my task in life is to be God honoring, as long as they see "God" in me that is all I care about"
or do maybe, just maybe WE say, "man, i really need to humble myself and look at my life and figure out why, while i'm attempting to be God honoring people don't see God's love in me?"
just askin...
So do you say, "who cares what non-christians think about me, I live for God?" - YES because if I live for God and follow His ways then whether the world sees me as crazy or a nut doesn't matter.
or do you say, "my task in life is to be God honoring, as long as they see "God" in me that is all I care about"
my task is to be God honoring regardless of whether they see God in me. What they see is not my objective.
or do maybe, just maybe WE say, "man, i really need to humble myself and look at my life and figure out why, while i'm attempting to be God honoring people don't see God's love in me?"
If you are truly honoring God and following scripture the rest is up to God. He calls us to a life of obedience, faith, love, etc. If we do those well it will be pretty impossible for others not to see a difference.
Wow,"christians" in your area must be way holier than the ones around me....
I'm back...traveling last week. Jim, great topic. Sometimes I like to read the scriptures and just follow Jesus as he moved through the unsaved men and women. The only ones He was hard on was the Pharisees. But to the world of men he was genital, firm, and understanding. He never tolerated sin but He was compassionate. He could have easily condemned the adulterous woman they brought before him. Did he condemn her? He offered protection, He turned the accusers table, and when she was safe, and only after she was safe, He instructed her to go and sin no more. I realize that we like to say go and sin no more before we have shown love. I believe in a sovereign Lord who knows far better than I do how to touch the heart of the unbeliever. But I will never be guilty of showing anything but love to them because they don't know any better 1 Cor.2:14.
Great post Craig, actually was Larry's topic...Jim is just judging it. :)
Jim, is there a reason you take so much judgemental heat? :o)
Must be the way I type :) or maybe living in California, or maybe because my nickname in college was dogmatic :) -- who knows
Jim, somehow dogmatic and California don't seem to work in the same sentence.
LOL...I wonder if they gave you that nickname when you reminded them of one of these ;)
What do outsiders think of Christians?
“Conservative, entrenched in their thinking, antigay, antichoice, angry, violent, illogical, empire builders; they want to convert everyone and they generally cannot live peaceably with anyone who doesn’t believe what they believe.” (unChristian by David Kinnaman, p26).
Main Entry: dog·mat·ic
Pronunciation: \dȯg-ˈma-tik, däg-\
Variant(s): also dog·mat·i·cal \-ti-kəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1660
1 : characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts
Craig - great post about showing love first. Why is "loving" not on the list anywhere? Chuck - show some love!
Now both Jim & Chuck basically put "who cares" about the too political comment, but that is one of the things that stops people from wanting to be a Christian. Shouldn't we be concerned about that? Jesus wasn't political at all - why are Christians? Why do we have to legislate morality on people?
Zacchaeus, you vile cheating, robbing, no good tax collector...OR, hay Zac, I'm coming to your house. Lets have some food, fellowship, and let you see the real Me. "Taste and see that the Lord is good."
Craig is on a roll! good stuff..can we get a chapter/verse on that? :)
Maybe growing up in Georgia helped. I think many Christians (present blog group not included) are often too unsure of what they believe in and/or don't know where they stand on issues so they really have no opinion.
1 : characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts
---and many times they are facts!!
Good comment Larry. Seriously guy's, how do we be "Sault in the world." or how do we light a candle and be judgmental? If they don't repent they are going to face an eternity of judgment. Lets show the love of God. They need sault. They need light. Light the world and draw them. leave the judging to God. if I am asked what is wrong wth a thing I will respond. But I must show love first. To many I'm the only godpel they will read. So what's the gospel according to me?
Jim, I would rather believe that I am judgmental because of insecurity rather than the other way around. if I am secure in my belief I can show love unashamedly and confidently because of that security. I can tell you from 30 years of experience being active in ministry that the most judgmental people I have ever known were the most insecure.
All kidding aside, great comments from all (including Jim).
Great topic, and one we deal with each and every day. Larry and I just talked about this over Pizza the other night :)
I enjoy being around my non-christian friends WAY more than my christian ones...why is that?
Could be an internal heart problem of mine, could be i've been so long wrapped up in the "showy, non-transparent, outside is all that matters" kind of religion I just need some honest, here i am, type of people.
I'm guessing that is why Jesus hung out with them too, he was sick of the other crowd too :)
Good thoughts and discussions.
I think that words like "judging" can be taken in different lights and therefore they have different meanings.
Do I judge the homosexual? Meaning do I pass judgment on them and refuse to be around them?
The answer would be NO, we are called to show them the love of Christ which includes the fact that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes but is not limited to that fact alone.
In that case we are still making a judgment but without the same negative meaning that comes with the non-biblical excluding of them from our midst.
Would any of us approach a homosexual, transvestite, prostitute, or any unsaved person and offer them a meal? Would we offer our friendship in the midst of this current society? Could we show so much love that they would be compelled to ask, "Why are you treating me with so much love?" "Why are you so different?" Then, and only then is the door open for the gospel. because they have finally see Jesus.
"We welcome divorced people into churches and care for them but homosexuals are asked to leave. That's where the anti-homosexual comments come from as well as a nice dose of hypocrisy."
The church that does this is definitely not following God's lead.
Neither is the church that allows homo-sexuals to be members in their church thereby holding them up as examples for others to follow.
Coming from an arts background I do know this issue is not an easy one and I know many people with this lifestyle.
Good discussion
50%? I think you need to get some updated figures...
I've never seen a life changed by the guy on the street corner yelling "you are going to hell" "you must be saved" (this is my personal experience only)
But i have seen lives changed by just having a BBQ with a neighbor, going to a ball game with a co-worker, offering some help with cutting down a tree, etc.
RELATIONSHIPS...until we meet people where they are at, like Jesus did for us, what is the point?
The church is for repentatnt sinners. if there is no repentance there is no place in the church. What is the church? God's regenerated family. So are we talkig members of the church or attenders? I welcome all men to attend. But I only allow repentant sinners as menbers. otherwise the testamony of the church is nutered.
Chuck - BTW - the answer to your question is "YES". Coming from your same background, it's so great to have honest discussions with outsiders instead of pretend ones with Christians.
Craig - Yes - that's what's needed. But are we practicing that?
Jim - why then can divorced people join the church (devil's advocate question)?
Are you saying that the discussions with Christians are not honest? or is this a specific group that you have come to know?
The only way to answer your question on divorce and membership is to put it in the following statement.
If I were a pastor of a church, membership would be available to all who have repented of their sins and put their trust in Christ and are working to live their life according to scripture. The homosexual can't be a homosexual and fit in that category. The divorced person can.
A side note. If I were a pastor there wouldn't be membership in the church :)
I'll let Chuck comment on the Christian conversations part.
Chuck - ok sorry - I was off by 1%:
http://www.divorce.com/article/divorce-statistics
Mark 10:10-11
10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
Why does this magically go away just because someone admits (repents) it's a sin? I'm just furthering the discussion, not necessarily taking this side. My point is - we are very eager to forgive the divorced person, but the church feels absolute disgust for the homosexual, even though their sins are the same in God's eyes - correct?
The key word being "practicing." Can you be a practicing divorcee? There are times I'ma pricticing sinner :o)
"You cannot according to many places in scripture be a Christian and a practicing homo-sexual."
I think we need to be careful with that. If someone has come to Christ and struggles with this, why is that any different from any other sin? I think that's where the point #3 is based. We single out this particular sin and consider it the most despicable.
Can you be a Christian and struggle with pornography?
Struggling and practicing are 2 completely different words. We single out this sin because of passages like Leviticus, Romans 1, Ephesians etc. Sin is sin and it separates us from God and that is bad but if the whole point of trust and repentance is turning away from your sin and turning towards God. That would mean that you can't continue to practice the sin that you turned away from. This is true of other sins also of course. After we are saved we continue to struggle with sins but the key word is struggle, i.e. we know they are wrong. If you are practicing you are not struggling you have gone past that.
Before I leave this point let's define practicing. "The continual act of doing something to make it appear normal and not wrong" - Jim's definition
I think we covered the homosexual point pretty well - let's pick another one and discuss it.
I'm traveling a lot of today so my posts will be few.
Had to actually WORK late yesterday, good stuff. Someone who is still "practicing" isn't repentant, not sure what there is to debate on that one.
Divorced person that remarries and then repents can only move on, right? What are they going to do, divorce again? :)
Larry, 51% seems low to me :)
Look at point #2. It says we're too focused on getting converts. The Bible tells us to "go ye therefore and teach all nations", so how do we balance that command to proselytize without always having an agenda? I think part of this goes to Craig's point about how insincere we are. Why do we have to so forcefully and adamantly demand that it be done our way? Because people don't actually believe what they're saying. They feel that if they can convince someone else of it, that it must be true (and in so doing they are trying to strengthen their own faith). So in essence they are lying to themselves. Outsiders see this and it comes across more like multi-level marketing than Jesus.
I rest in the knowledge that there is nothing in the world I can do or say that will convert anyone. That is God's job through the Holy Spirit. My job (which I wish I did better) is to plant seeds and maybe some of them will grow
Jim - I'll have to let you and Craig gang up on me sometime with your hyper-Calvinism positions, that might be fun.
Regarding #4 the point that people said in the book is that we say things like "Just get saved!" or "Jesus is the answer" or "I'll pray for you" but fail to actually do anything that might help them. The other thing I see personally is that Christians tend to live this life as if they are just "passing through" and that their real life is in the next one, so they really don't care about what happens here. That's a reason given by Christians as to why they don't care about the environment, etc.
I actually see every one of those objections as valid; it's really sad. I'm glad we're looking at it though, hopefully that means we can make some personal adjustments.
I agree that it is sad that a lot of Christians don't understand salvation as both a 1 time event and a process. They haven't thought through sanctification, justification and glorification.
It is life changing when you realize that you are on this earth for the purpose of glorifying God and not getting things for yourself or just "getting to heaven"
Hyper Calvinist? No, Biblisist! In reality you simply can not ignore election or you will have to cut out major portions of the Bible. You also can't ignore "whosoever will." They only meet in the mind of God. But if I am going to try to tell God he is unfair if the Calvinist position is correct, then am I the clay telling the potter how to fashion me? Did He not make one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonor? He made some people expressly for dishonor. Judas, Pharaoh, and others. Pore saps never had a chance......right? To me all the questions about environment and maintaining this world hinge on sovereign grace. I don't respect the environment because I'm coming back as a bird or because I'm overly concerned about my great grandchildren being able to breath. I care for it out of respect for the One who created it. I honor Him by doing my best. After all, before the fall, wasn't that Adam's job in the first place?
Ok...New post if we are going down that rode. I too dislike labels because they are so misleading. For instance, I agree that Calvin correctly interpreted the bible with regards to TULIP but I disagree on infant baptism and believe the bible teaches infant baptism. Also remember that the core doctrine that most people think of when the mention Calvin is just as portion of the overall theology of Calvin. It was written in response to Jacob Arminius, professor of theology at the University of Leiden. The larger your view of God is the more you will find yourself in agreement with a lot of Calvin's points.
Agreed. But where is infint baptism and what's it's purpose?
I just posted that to get at both of you :). One of you write up a post on election / Calvinism / infant baptism or whatever and email it to me and I'll post it. Are we done with the current subject?
Current subject done!
i think those are all pretty accurate descriptions of what i find in the church. hypocritical is a more politically correct way of saying living a lie.
Welcome to the blog James, blog peeps this is my bud James.
James - welcome! I agree with you on your definition of "hypocritical" - the church I grew up in was full of people doing exactly that.
It took me awhile to find people who are not living Christian life like that, but I finally did. The people posting here have seen it all too.