OT saints? Everyone who loves?
The below words are not mine. I found this article very interesting and thought it should be brought here for discussion. Article below as follows:
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7).
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
The first verse would seem to indicate that people who lead a lifestyle of genuine, unselfish love will have an inheritance in the Kingdom of Heaven—this could include people who have lived their whole lives never hearing the gospel. The second verse seems to indicate that these people must believe in the name of Jesus and become Christians in order to be given the gift of salvation. Because scripture never contradicts itself, I am convinced that there is always a way to harmonize passages such as these. What is the Lord most likely trying to tell us in these verses?
Here is what I have come to believe. Jesus is the only Way to the Father. No one has ever been saved apart from Jesus. This includes people from the Old Testament as well as people from distant regions who have never heard the gospel story before. This is possible because Jesus was active in the Old Testament and all around the world through his Law of Love. By truly choosing to love one another, people are choosing Christ and choosing God because God is love. "...if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us" (1 John 4:12).
I don't believe that this is detrimental to Christian theology at all. In fact, if we take a strict interpretation of Acts 4:12, it would clearly indicate that no person in the Old Testament could be saved! After all, they didn't know Jesus and could not trust in His name for salvation. This is a more serious dilemma than what I am proposing. Yet most Christians are convinced that without knowing the name of Jesus, there is no salvation. How then do they solve the problem of salvation in the Old Testament?
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7).
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
The first verse would seem to indicate that people who lead a lifestyle of genuine, unselfish love will have an inheritance in the Kingdom of Heaven—this could include people who have lived their whole lives never hearing the gospel. The second verse seems to indicate that these people must believe in the name of Jesus and become Christians in order to be given the gift of salvation. Because scripture never contradicts itself, I am convinced that there is always a way to harmonize passages such as these. What is the Lord most likely trying to tell us in these verses?
Here is what I have come to believe. Jesus is the only Way to the Father. No one has ever been saved apart from Jesus. This includes people from the Old Testament as well as people from distant regions who have never heard the gospel story before. This is possible because Jesus was active in the Old Testament and all around the world through his Law of Love. By truly choosing to love one another, people are choosing Christ and choosing God because God is love. "...if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us" (1 John 4:12).
I don't believe that this is detrimental to Christian theology at all. In fact, if we take a strict interpretation of Acts 4:12, it would clearly indicate that no person in the Old Testament could be saved! After all, they didn't know Jesus and could not trust in His name for salvation. This is a more serious dilemma than what I am proposing. Yet most Christians are convinced that without knowing the name of Jesus, there is no salvation. How then do they solve the problem of salvation in the Old Testament?
this is one of the first verses that made me doubt my salvation...why because there are alot of people that i do not love. in fact i would say there are alot of people i do not like.
well according to first john a true believer loves. what do you think? do you truly love the unlovely? how about the annoying the hypocrites, the arrogant, or the person you are jealous of?
i dont and that made me wonder about the spirit residing in me!
I will start my first post in this thread by sharing something I have been studying and changing in my personal life...LOVE. I missed the meaning of this word my whole life...selfishness has destroyed "love" in me. I have been soaking on the following passage over and over...and if what i'm getting from it is true, then Larry you have some real merit in your post....
1 Corinthians 13 (The Message)
1 Corinthians 13
The Way of Love
1 If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. 2If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. 3-7If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.
Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.
8-10Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
James, in your version...none of us would be saved. Our human nature doesn't allow the love you are holding yourself up to...that is why we need God. Dying to self daily...cliche, but HUGE!
There are people/person i literally could kill in my human flesh...i have begged God to give me the 'love' he talks about above to this person/people.
James - we are all guilty of not loving everybody. Chuck said it right - none of us would be saved by your standard!
This post begs this question - if someone does "love", exercises selflessness, etc but hasn't heard the name of Jesus (say he lives in some remote place)is that Christ working through him? The standard Christian answer would be "no of course not". Then we need to harmonize 1 John with normal Christian theology.
Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Phil 2:10-11
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I take a lot of comfort in these verses. Basically - it says that not only will people be without excuse, but they will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - meaning that they will also AGREE that they are being judged fairly.
If you've ever read Mere Christianity, CS Lewis makes a great case that we all have a moral law written in our hearts - regardless of culture or where you were born. Maybe this is God's way of "calling" everyone, not wanting anyone to perish; you can ignore this call, or you can embrace it and seek it fully. Choose to ignore it? Your heart will be hardened. Seek to embrace it? Everyone who seeks finds. Does this clash with total depravity? I don't think so because God is calling you through the moral law, so it's really HIS doing, not yours.
I must confess, I have never heard of being called by a moral law.
The moral law (i.e. coming from your conscience) and the knowledge of God through creation comes from Romans chapters 1 and 2
Good points Larry
Jim
I get that part, Romans 1, 2. What I meant was morality never saved anyone. Some of the most morally upstanding people I know are as lost as can be. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same playing field that salvation is through faith in the finished work of Christ. Just like to stir the pot.
Jim - would you consider the moral law (conscience) a call from God? If not, why do unsaved people have consciences?
Craig - not trying to say morality can save. How were OT people saved?
Conscience is part of being created in the image of God. Everyone has it. Saved and unsaved alike. Is moral law the conscience?
Craig I've been thinking about your last comment today. If unsaved people are "spiritually dead" why do they have consciences? Isn't having a conscience proof of having a spirit? Surely no animal has a conscience. How can you be made in the image of God and have no spirit?
This should be interesting.
God created all people with a conscience. All of us are born spiritually dead in need of a savior. The conscience is just one way that we know we need a savior.
Larry, read 1 Cor. 2:14. The natural man, or unsaved man can not understand the spirit of God nor even understand him because this knowledge is "spiritually" understood. He has a conscious but do divine spirit to discern truth. Therefore, he is "spiritually" dead. The spirit of man is not the same as a born again man having the Spirit of God indwelling him. he is in the image of God, but not possessing the divine image as in the indwelling Spirit.
Jim and Craig...spot on. You lose Larry. :)
Jim/Craig...you did not really respond to the scenario of a tribesman in Africa that never hears the Gospel...just curious of your take.
oops...wrong thread...sorry guys, reading too much at once :)
The tribesman, the easy answer is that he wasn't elect, Ha! Who can say...I have heard stories of tribal people who knew there was something there and at some point a missionary showed up and they were saved. I try not to get caught up in the pore sap who lives in the far reaches of the earth. The Bible is clear that no one can be saved apart from hearing the word. So if they never hear the word, who's fault is it? How can they be guilty or rejecting a truth they have never heard? You can go on and on trying to satisfy these answers. God is sovereign and the Lord does what He will do and I will never fully understand all the whys.
I never disagreed with anything said on this topic, so I don't "lose". I just wanted Scripture to be shared to back up reasoning for cliche phrases that we use regarding serious topics. No one has attempted the OT saved issue though.
since it was in the wrong thread I will put the answer in this thread also. The question was
"what about the tribesman in Africa?"
The first 2 chapters in Romans deal with the knowing of God through conscience and creation so the tribesman in Africa has no excuse. God is Holy and Just so I rest in that not knowing exactly how He will deal with these situations. As an aside I find that most people who ask this question don't want to focus on their salvation and would rather talk about someone else.
The OT Saved issue.
Romans 4:1-3 from the NIV - not the message :)
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness
so Abraham before Jesus believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. The word credited comes from a Greek word Logizomai that has the meaning of settling of accounts.
Logizomai was a term frequently used in the business community of Paul's day and meant to impute (put to one's account) or credit to one's account. Check out Romans 4. This word in the Greek is used 11 times in that chapter alone.
Abraham was declared righteous by believing God concerning the promise for many descendants (i.e., as numerous as the stars). He was not declared righteous on the basis of any works he had performed.
Of course Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM" so it is obvious that God working outside of time is not limited to our inside of time perspective.
Jim said:
“The first 2 chapters in Romans deal with the knowing of God through conscience and creation so the tribesman in Africa has no excuse. God is Holy and Just so I rest in that not knowing exactly how He will deal with these situations.”
AMEN! I AGREE! See below passage for more backup on this view (justice).
Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
Then Jim said:
“ As an aside I find that most people who ask this question don't want to focus on their salvation and would rather talk about someone else.”
I don’t agree here though. I feel like people who refuse to ask or answer this question either aren’t confident enough in their own beliefs about God, or don’t have enough compassion for others. Sticking our fingers in our ears and yelling “la la la I can’t hear you la la la” when difficult questions arise is not honoring God. Searching intensely, urgently and prayerfully for answers is the proper response. (none of this was directed at Jim – he’s perfectly willing to discuss tough issues)
Ok Jim…as a follow up to your Abraham comment – did God change the rules of salvation or are they the same NT/OT?
For sure!!!