Defending Calvin
I thought awhile about how to discuss election on this blog. It’s WAY too big to discuss in its entirety, and it’s very emotional on top of that. I would like to limit the responses to ONLY the following things:
1. Explain how one or all the below verses make sense regarding predestination or election.
2. Agreeing or disagreeing with the ending statement. If you disagree you must prove from Scripture why you don’t agree.
Do not bring up the verses that teach predestination and election just to say “what about these?” or “these teach the opposite”.
Please review the following verses:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 2:2)
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (I Tim 2:4)
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. (Mark 16:15).
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Romans 5:18).
Statement below:
The Calvinist who preaches, teaches and witnesses the Gospel is in reality lying to most of the people who hear him and he's doing so in Jesus' name. It is a lie to tell a man that if he will believe in Jesus Christ that he shall be saved (Romans 10:9-10) while, at the same time, believing and teaching most cannot accept Christ.
1. Explain how one or all the below verses make sense regarding predestination or election.
2. Agreeing or disagreeing with the ending statement. If you disagree you must prove from Scripture why you don’t agree.
Do not bring up the verses that teach predestination and election just to say “what about these?” or “these teach the opposite”.
Please review the following verses:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 2:2)
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (I Tim 2:4)
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. (Mark 16:15).
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Romans 5:18).
Statement below:
The Calvinist who preaches, teaches and witnesses the Gospel is in reality lying to most of the people who hear him and he's doing so in Jesus' name. It is a lie to tell a man that if he will believe in Jesus Christ that he shall be saved (Romans 10:9-10) while, at the same time, believing and teaching most cannot accept Christ.
Test
Got it! :)
Couple of points to start.
1. If you are going to use the word Calvinist then you should be
quoting directly from Calvin. There are people who distort what he
wrote and people who correctly state what he wrote but using "The
Calvinist..." leads us in to all types of assumptions
2. People do not believe because there heart is hardened. We see
this in scripture in the case of Pharoah. Scripture clearly states
that his heart was hardened. In spite of this he had the
responsibility to choose God or not choose God.
3. a correct knowledge of scripture would never allow someone to
have the following view ... 'at the same time, believing and
teaching most cannot accept Christ.' Because that is not the point
of scripture at all. A person who understands election is humbled by
the God that would choose Him and understands that it is his
job/calling etc to preach the Gospel to all and leave it to God to
call people to Him
1. Fair enough
2. Are you claiming that God causes people to sin? How can God "harden" a heart to intentionally cause someone to choose sin? Please expound.
3. Doesn't answer the question proposed.
You can't, in my opinion, answere your proposed question without establishing the point you don't want to discuss. Once again its discussing cars without being able to discuss engins or tires. But read Romans 9:21-23. He makes vessels for distruction and vessels for honor. Vers 23 says the vessels of honer were "before" prepared unto glory. I don't get it!!! But it makes sense in the God's mind.
To your #2 response Larry, i have wrestled with this one recently...this is what God gave to me, and yes it's from The Message...
JAMES 1:13-18
13-15Don't let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, "God is trying to trip me up." God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one's way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust. Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer.
16-18So, my very dear friends, don't get thrown off course. Every desirable and beneficial gift comes out of heaven. The gifts are rivers of light cascading down from the Father of Light. There is nothing deceitful in God, nothing two-faced, nothing fickle. He brought us to life using the true Word, showing us off as the crown of all his creatures.
Craig I'm not handicapping your use of scripture. I'm asking you to harmonize those verses with election. I just didn't want everyone to start posting election verses and quoting TULIP. Tell me how you mesh sovereignty, election and those verses.
Chuck - great scripture. What about pharoah?
Larry,
Don't you have the same burden to harmonize your verses with the typical "election" verses? How do you explain election, pre-destination, etc without incorrectly interpreting them as foreknowledge.
Not that I won't respond, because I plan to, I just wanted to get that question on the list.
Here is the larger truth. Romans 9 etc only make sense within the context of the book of Romans as a whole. It is always dangerous to put verse against verse without the context of the whole book. Romans 9 and the other verses in the book come to light better when starting at Romans 1 and reading the whole. That is unfortunately a task that most Christians will not undertake and it leads to an incorrect understanding of scripture in many cases.
Jim,
Just so I understan, are you saying my quoting Romans 9 is not in sink with all of scripture and is only for the book of Romans? its fine if you think that but I want to make sure where you are coming from.
No...I agree with your use of Romans 9 but if you want to get closer to "I get it" and away from "I don't get it" then a comprehensive look at the book of Romans will aid in that pursuit. Our pastor is going through Romans right now and it may take 4 years but it is amazing how it can fit together when you read it and study it as a letter as Paul wrote it.
Jim-Got it. That is for sure about the whole context. It also puts the "whosoever will" in context for me and makes it more exciting to spread the word.
Jim, you are correct - the harmonizing needs to go both ways and I'll be happy to attempt it once we've exhausted this part. Don't assume I don't believe in election, because it's part of Scripture and I definitely believe in "election" just not necessarily the way TULIP is. I strongly dislike bullet points with the gospel (can't you tell that yet?).
Still have those 2 things out there I'm trying to get someone to answer. Take any of those verses and harmonize them with TULIP or disprove the statement that you are lying to people if you believe in election. Craig has answered "I don't get it!" and I know he knows his Scripture pretty darn well.
OK, I'm going to throw out something that was proposed to me. I just want to hear your thoughts..."The Bible is written to Christians, therefore, all scripture is profitable...right? The "all men" should be saved are the "all men" who are Christians. We assume some of these verses apply to every human born since creation. But what if God is writing only to Christians? What prophet is the scriptures for the unsaved? Is not the Bible an instruction manual for the life of a Christian?"
Craig I've thought about that with other passages os Scripture too. I always wondered if some of the words Jesus spoke (like if 2 of you agree on anything it will be done by my Father in heaven) were spoken only to his disciples.
I would need more convincing in this case though. The word kosmon or kosmos is used in some verses about this and that's pretty inclusive. Also if we start down that path, it would seem a very slippery slope with us trying to decide which Scriptures apply to Christians only, etc.
This is a tough topic no doubt.
Craig, while some books of the bible are written to christians there is a good part of the bible that is written to the unsaved as well. I think the bible is a perfect place for non-christians to investigate the faith and thus I conclude that it is written for everyone to read.
So here is the place I live in regards to election / TULIP etc. The key for me is to realize that the doctrines of election and the doctine of salvation is open to all are not mutually exclusive. Both can and do co-exist at the same time. I think that it is important to understand each verse of the Bible but at times we need to add the element of God being outside of time in order to aid our understanding. When that is added to the equation we begin to see things from His perspective which is much different than our perspective.
Can we be held responsible for something that we were pre-determined for before we were born?. YES
Is evangelism important for christians to participate in? YES
Does John 3:16 really mean "whosoever" i.e. all? YES
The most important part of TULIP to me is Irresistable Grace (I) and Total Depravity (T) - we can't choose God unless He chooses us an we can resist his grace. But does this make it unjust that some aren't chosen? NO
Consider the man in the leather chair. If he were chained to a chair and ordered to get up out of the chair that would be unjust since he is physically unable to do so because of the chains. However, consider if he were seated in this warm very comfortable leather chair and were so amazingly content to stay there that he didn't want to get up. If then he were ordered to arise and walk he could be held responsible for not doing so since there was nothing preventing his movement except his desire to stay in the chair.
If this topic doesn't baffle your mind and bring you to a place of reverence before God and further repentance then you probably have landed on the wrong side of the fence and brought God down to your level instead of striving to move to His level.
We should never say "It is 100% our choice" nor should we say "It is 100% God's choice"
Hope you are enjoying the weekend
"If he were chained to a chair and ordered to get up out of the chair that would be unjust since he is physically unable to do so because of the chains."
Applying this to Pharaoh, how is intentional hardening of the heart not "chaining" him? Per your statement, that would be unjust.
What I'm about to say may come across as rude or disrespectful but I don't mean it that way at all. I am very humbly making the following analogy:
1. Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?
2. Can God make a square triangle?
3. Can we be held responsible for something that we were pre-determined for before we were born?
There is a "yes" or a "no" answer to those questions; the fact that I don't know the answer doesn't change the fact that there is still a "yes" or a "no". Jim has answered "yes" to #3, but he's trying to say "yes" to "it's a choice" and "yes" to "you have no choice". That is absurd (once again, I mean no disrespect, and every Calvin-influenced person would answer the question the same way).
The answer to questions #1 and #2 is "no", because they are nonsense. Nonsense is still nonsense even if you attribute the question to God. I believe the same thing applies to saying "yes God predetermined whether or not you are saved" and also saying "yes it's your fault" is also a nonsensical answer.
"Applying this to Pharoah, hos is intentional hardening of the heart not "chaining" him?
Precisely because Pharoah made the choices to push God away and in the process his heart was hardened. So did go pre-ordain this? YES...did Phraoah have responsibility for his sinful actions? YES -- Why is this logic not absurd or insane? It just doesn't make sense, right?
I prefer to take the bible at its word and try to interpret what is says. What are we to say to the passage in Habakkuk where God says he is in charge of what the Babylonians do in reference to there asault on God's people. According to the passage it is all a part of God's intention but they are responsible for their actions.
Consider that we are totally depraved beings that can't seek after God. If that is true and you agree with that then it follows that God must call us in order for us to be saved. Then the question is "can we resist the call of God?" If the answer is NO then the God must call some and not others. If the answer is Yes then it is possible that none would follow after Christ and His resurrection would be in vain. How is it then if you take my position that God can hold people responsible for their actions? The answer lies in the fact that God is Holy, God is just, God has the authority and we are all totally sinful.
I did not say or imply that "it's a choice" and "we have no choice". I said, or meant to say. "God choose His people and we are all responsible for our actions?" Mind bogling "YES" but also scriptural.
Hopefully some of the above makes sense...this is a difficult topic to maintain clarity on.
"The answer lies in the fact that God is Holy, God is just, God has the authority and we are all totally sinful."
I agree with this statement. What I don't agree with is that "God has the authority" trumps "God is just".
Doctrines interpreted correctly from Scripture will not violate any of God’s other attributes. Can we agree with this policy of Scriptural interpretation? God’s attributes also include merciful, loving, forgiving and JUST. Let’s examine justice for a minute and let’s use the potter & clay example that Craig brought up. It is madness for a potter to fashion clay into a teacup and then be furious with the teacup because it is not a plate. This cannot be the correct interpretation.
We are not going to solve this puzzle on this blog, but let me throw out an idea – I have seen no other backup of this theory or idea, but maybe it has some merit. Let’s look at the chief passage used for election which is Ephesians 1:4-5:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Case closed right? Hold on….keep reading – read carefully to follow me here:
Verses 11-14:
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Paul says he was chosen by predestination and was basically the first to be saved. This makes sense he got blasted by God on the road to Damascus – that’s pretty much as “elect” as it gets. But look at verse 13 – when were the others included in Christ? WHEN YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH (and believed).
I’m not dogmatic about this, and I don’t think anyone knows the answer for sure. In true Emperor’s new clothes form, I’m being the child in the crowd. Is it possible that God had to predestine some to be his children, otherwise the Gospel would not have been spread or would have been killed off at some point, but otherwise – most of humanity has free will to make their choice? Just throwing it out there – not sure about it either, but at least it doesn’t violate one of his attributes.
thats a big can of worms. verses like it is not his will that any should perish and its his decision to make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor really left me second guessing when i read the bible. it doesnt seem like both of those statements can be true
how can we be responsible for choices that are pre ordained for us to make. seems to me like we were created to like what the bible calls sin. yet we are not supposed to choose the sin. i cant ignore pharoah when this conversation is discussed. did pharoah really have a choice? it seems to me like god hardened his heart to show the children of israel what he could do. which by the way stuck in their minds for a hot second before they built the golden calf.
James - you said:
"seems to me like we were created to like what the bible calls sin"
I like being a parent to my daughter, I like giving anonymous gifts to those in need, I like the current church I attend (with lots of non-hypocrites), I like baseball, I like great food, etc the list can go on and on about things that are not sinful that I like. Do I also like naked women? Yes, but if I choose to get hooked on porn I will harm my marriage or lose my daughter's respect (which I value much more). Most "sins" that I am not supposed to choose will make my life worse if I choose them. Feel free to call "BS" on me here if you have a specific example.
Read my comment above yours. I called the idea both absurd and madness. Then I threw out an idea that might harmonize it, but I'm waiting for a reaction from the rest of these clowns.
a couple of points from Clown JT during the work day.
I agree with this statement. What I don't agree with is that "God has the authority" trumps "God is just".
God's justice can't exist without God's authority. They don't trump each other they live in perfect harmony.
"seems to me like we were created to like what the bible calls sin"
Welcome, James to the blog. My little 9 month old is a perfect example of a "little heathen". We were definitely created in a fallen world as sinful creations.
"Paul says he was chosen by predestination and was basically the first to be saved. This makes sense he got blasted by God on the road to Damascus – that’s pretty much as “elect” as it gets. But look at verse 13 – when were the others included in Christ? WHEN YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH (and believed)."
Paul believed when he heard the word just like those who came after him. It just happens that God took a different path to get his attention (sounds like irresistible grace!) but verse 13 which is "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" applies to Paul also. Consider the following -- "And Paul was also included in Christ when he heard the word of truth, the gospel of his salvation"
I don't think you can make any distinction here.
it seems reasonable. however i find so much going on in the book of acts. those who heard were confirmed by the gift of tongues. i surely dont want to open that can of worms it would need a blog of its own. but i must point out that there was a sign that they had believed and received, those who were included knew they were included. there was a visual sign to validate their belief. what are we operating on today. i prayed a prayer... ihave a relationship with the lord... how does anyone really know?
great post about baseball and porn by the way. i agree with you there. however we are made to naturally like sin. ie naked women etc...its a choice to not look at porn but i think we naturally like it.
James – perfectly willing to discuss tongues on another post if you want. I don’t think everyone got a visual clue back then – what about the Phillipian Jailor (Acts 16)? He was just filled with joy. I can relate to that. I have a searing conscience that most of my accounts I deal with do not have (Craig – relate?). I also have a strange desire to be selfless sometimes when it makes absolutely no sense (sometimes this actually drives me crazy – another post another time).
Think about what you’re asking. You want to be drawn sexually to your wife but then once you’re married you want God to flip the magic switch and make you only sexually drawn to her? That’s not free will. What about drinking? You want God to make a nice 2-3 beer buzz available but then make beers 4-10 taste like crap so you won’t drink them? That’s not free will either. God gives you things to enjoy on this earth and the proper context to enjoy them. Abusing any of them won’t make your life better – it will be worse – which is one of the reasons he warns you not to do them.
I’m glad you’re here because I like no-BS posts.
Jim said:
“God's justice can't exist without God's authority. They don't trump each other they live in perfect harmony.” This doesn’t explain anything at all. Please explain God’s justice regarding people in Africa who have never heard the Gospel and are not elected.
Jim said:
“Paul believed when he heard the word just like those who came after him. It just happens that God took a different path to get his attention (sounds like irresistible grace!)”
Seriously? If I’m walking down my street with some homies and I get blinded by a light with God’s voice talking to me and the people I’m with also hear it, then all of a sudden I can heal people and raise the dead (Eutychus – Acts 20:7-12) I’d say I have an advantage over Larry 2000 years later accepting this all on faith. As a matter of fact, Paul probably doesn’t need faith – he has knowledge!
I’m just wondering if there are people placed throughout history/time that are “predestined” so that the Gospel will be spread just as God said it would, and the others will make their own choice. Can anyone prove from Scripture that this is definitely an error and cannot possibly be correct? Once again – I’m not trying to be rude – because I surely don’t have this figured out either – but I don’t want an answer that violates God’s character or attributes.
so God would predestine some but not others...and the others get to choose so that those who believe election and those who are more into free will can live in perfect harmonty. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too as the phrase goes.
Would that violate God's character or attributes?
Here is my conclusion at this point in the conversation. The blog clowns are intelligent people that have strong views on what we believe but neither have the time get deeply into scripture with respect to this blog. I wish I had the time to research and answer the questions fully but I can't say that I do.
All this doesn't mean that I won't give answers to the question but my desire to take the time needed to respond is going to go unfulfilled.
hey larry if your walking down the street with some homies. you should check your gps for low battery power. you might be in the wrong neighborhood.
i spent over two years reading the word cover to cover twice. i walked away with more questions than answers. that was very discouraging to me. one of the biggest questions was the pre destination thing. it seems to be a contradiction to me. how can we be predestined and have free will. how can the two things work togethor? i know believers say we cant understand gods ways and his will is perfect etc... you know the catch phrases but a vessel made for dishonor does not really seem to have free will in my opinion. this brings up the question is the bible possibly written by man? are we possibly reading paul's opinion as i might read john pipers or philip yanceys. is every book in the new testament meant to be there. is the bible possibly just another religious book. it was written by man it was assembled by men. it does seem to leave heavy issues unanswered like this one. i think a perfect book by a god who wants all to know wouls be a bit more black and white. just my opinion!
Be careful that you don't try to bring God down to your level. Why would we expect an infinite God who created the whole universe to be easily understood. I would expect that if the bible were more cut and dry or black and white then it was written by man instead of inspired by God. Look at the evidence of the entire scriptures, the timeline etc. There is more evidence to its inspiration than I can even imagine. The fact that we can't fully understand the election vs free will thing just means that there are mysteries that God knows that we don't. I happen to like it that way. I surely can't understand how God is outside of time since I live inside of time, but that doesn't make it so. And might a perfect God who lives outside of time have a perspective that those of us who live inside of time can fully grasp? The issue of election should move you to a place where God is more awesome, more amazing and less like us. The more we try to make Him like us the more we become god and not Him.
FYI...none of the above means that we should stop striving to understand all of these issues
Jim – good comment on cake & eating it too. I don’t know the answer – I’m not pretending I do. I can think of a few examples where God “elected” 7000 people that didn’t serve Baal or 144,000 in Revelation. I am also thinking of Heb 13:2 where God says sometimes we entertain angels without knowing it. All of these suggest an “election” outside of our normal sphere of perception. Am I adamant or dogmatic about it? No, but I think there might be some merit to it, especially in the light of the Ephesians passage we just talked about.
James – LOL on the homies comment! I’ve been where you are in your skepticism of why some books are included in the Bible, why some are excluded – and someone got to choose which books made it and which books didn’t make it. So I did a study on Bible Canon years ago. Basically, the books that they didn’t have good copies of (and couldn’t be sure they weren’t tampered with) or couldn’t have possibly been written by who they said they were (dated too late) or went completely against what Christianity was about (saved by works or similar) were excluded.
I agree using “God’s ways are higher than man’s ways” every time a difficult issue comes up is a cop out. Most of the time (not all) I find that the problem is reading our background into the Bible instead of reading the Bible. If you feel like it – read the post that started this whole blog, which is on eternal hell.
By the way – you are allowed to doubt these issues. Any Christian that says they don’t struggle with doubt sometimes is lying. Want proof? Read Matt 11. Unless you are claiming to be better than John the Baptist – sometimes you doubt.
Jim said – “Look at the evidence of the entire scriptures, the timeline etc. There is more evidence to its inspiration than I can even imagine.” He’s right – whenever you doubt, go back to something you know to be true and work your way back. That’s what I do.
God works in mysterious ways...had a post I was going to put here asking questions that I have struggled with. I went to Piper's blog to read today's entry first and low and behold he took most of it on... thought i would post it here from "Mr. Calvinist" himself... :)
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What do I do if I've tried to believe in Jesus but can't?
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By John Piper July 13, 2009
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The following is an edited transcript of the audio.
I've concluded that I don't have saving faith. I've tried to believe in Jesus for two years but I can't. I fear I'm beyond saving. What can I do?
Well, it may be that the Lord has put you in this situation—that is, withheld from you the kind of faith that you're looking for (saving faith)—in order to make you feel absolutely desperate.
Not everybody is given the privilege of realizing they can't produce their own faith. You have that privilege.
That may sound strange. Take it as a gift. You have been given the gift that many people, to their sometimes hurt, don't realize: we cannot produce faith. If we have genuine faith, it is a gift.
The Bible says that very clearly in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God." You know that now. I hope you do. I hope you realize you are absolutely, radically, deeply, powerfully dependant on God to give you faith.
Maybe your statement that you're trying to believe means you don't believe that. You think it really is your job ultimately and finally to do it, and maybe I could relieve you of that burden. You are commanded to believe, yes, you are. You are responsible to believe, but you can't believe. You're dead! You know that better than anybody.
Maybe my telling you this would be the means by which God would say,
I have for the last two years tried to make crystal clear to you that you are dead in your trespasses, and you can no more get up on your own than a corpse can get out of the coffin. I would like now to invite you to rest, to stop trying and to just rest in me.
I did it all for you! I went to the cross for you. I will give you now the Holy Spirit. Rest in me. Trust me. This is a gift. You can take a gift. You can receive a gift. It's not something you do. You can receive this.
The Lord grant you to receive the gift.
i read the eternal hell blog yesterday, i really enjoyed it. thats always been a pretty big issue for me. hell was obviously not created for us however gos knows all things future and by that premise it was. however saying it was created for lucy and the fallen is how i will approach this. they were in heaven they rebelled and now they get hell.
hell is permanent and there is no out date. i find it harsh that finite men who live short lives receive eternity in torment from a loving god. the same punishment as rebellious celestial beings who were in heaven, makes no sense and does not seem loving.even our human judges rarely hand out life sentences to first time offenders.
James if you want to continue the hell conversation, just post whatever you want to talk about over there and I'll talk to you about it. I think Jim (on the blog) and Craig (by email) both exhausted themselves trying to convince me back to the eternal side.
Jim you said a lot of good things in your last comment. There are some things we won't know the answer to this side of eternity.
What if we morph the conversation to this?
Mark 9:21-24
21Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
"From childhood," he answered. 22"It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
24Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
Does this compare to Piper's blog that Chuck just posted? Does this boy's father have saving faith?
POST IN THE PROPER THREADS...stupid preacher kids...always seen to be "that kid" :)
He can't have saving faith, he didn't know the whole gospel! ;)
A question for Jim I guess, so say a person says he believes and is saved, but because of circumstances or sin nature ends up denying his faith...
Was he elect or this is proof he wasn't?
Was he never saved?
Is he saved and "backsliden"?
I just never can get my mind around all this and the more I think about it the bigger the headache I get.
I kinda usually take a stance on this topic like I do Politics....you know that one already :)
Saving faith is just that "Saving faith". There is no concept in the bible of loosing your salvation or backsliding to the point of not having your salvation. If the person ends up denying his faith then scripture would say that he was never saved. The concept that you can loose your salvation seems to come from a mindset that we aren't good enough and we want to be in control. The first part is entirely correct. We are so bad that nothing but the blood of Jesus will save us. And just like Paul, when God saves you it is forever.
"If the person ends up denying his faith then scripture would say that he was never saved."
I would like chapter and verse on that one please.
What about the boy's father? He said he wanted help with his unbelief - is he saved?
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
hmmm...did he leave anything out?
Are you answering the question(s) with that verse? If so, please expound because it sounds like those verses should be used to say that you couldn't renounce your faith - you would still be loved by God.
yes I am.
shall be able to separate us...meaning that you must be "with God" i.e. saved and hence this verse is applying to Christians.
The rest should be self-explanatory
I would say that those that renounce their faith never had it in the first place or had held on to many of the false Gospels that are prevalent today.
hey cshell get a mans name not a wimpy wanna be hippy earth wind and fire nonsense
some good thoughts from C.H.Spurgeon (IMO)
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."—1 Thessalonians 1:4.
MANY persons want to know their election before they look to Christ, but
they cannot learn it thus, it is only to be discovered by "looking unto
Jesus." If you desire to ascertain your own election;—after the
following manner, shall you assure your heart before God. Do you feel
yourself to be a lost, guilty sinner? go straightway to the cross of
Christ, and tell Jesus so, and tell Him that you have read in the Bible,
"Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out." Tell Him that He
has said, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."
Look to Jesus and believe on Him, and you shall make proof of your
election directly, for so surely as thou believest, thou art elect. If
you will give yourself wholly up to Christ and trust Him, then you are
one of God's chosen ones; but if you stop and say, "I want to know first
whether I am elect," you ask you know not what. Go to Jesus, be you
never so guilty, just as you are. Leave all curious inquiry about
election alone. Go straight to Christ and hide in His wounds, and you
shall know your election. The assurance of the Holy Spirit shall be
given to you, so that you shall be able to say, "I know whom I have
believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have
committed to Him."
Christ was at the everlasting council: He can tell you whether you were
chosen or not; but you cannot find it out in any other way. Go and put
your trust in Him, and His answer will be—"I have loved thee with an
everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."
There will be no doubt about His having chosen you, when you have chosen
Him.