Is there such a thing as going too far?
Craig Gross is the founder of xxxchurch and witnesses to porn stars at porn conventions. I have read his book "The Gutter". What do you guys think of this?
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/07/my-take-jesus-loves-porn-stars/
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/07/my-take-jesus-loves-porn-stars/
If you think that this is your individual ministry then OK...on some level I could buy that. But if you want to be a Pastor and sheppard your flock and preach God's Word accurately then this is wrong on so many levels. Just think of the number of marriages that have been torn apart by this industry. News from xxxchurch...We are going to have this years men's retreat on the strip in Las Vegas. topics too include "Sin and Temptation...how to win the fight"!!
Awesome! Great topic. I'm not sure how Craig remains pure in mind and spirit with all that is put before him, but I think he is jumping in a pool that not many "christians" would ever think to swim.
I always think about John the Baptist being alive in our present day and age...we would cast him out in a second, maybe less time actually.
You would have to be one strong man to minister in that pool. I would't try it ofr a minute!!!
I read his book and I really think his ministry is genuine. That being said - I agree with Craig & Chuck - I could not do it. I don't even trust myself on my own computer, so I have filtering software to eliminate the temptation.
My question is - what good does it do to bring Ron Jeremy into the church? What is that going to accomplish? Ron has heard the gospel and has rejected it. I'm all for debating topics (as you all well know) but I'm wondering if anyone actually sees a benefit to putting him in front of the congregation.
I think Craig is trying to get the church to actually talk about it... P O R N. We as christians are so afraid to talk truthfully about it.
Every man i know has struggled with it, that includes all the christian men i know. If we are being honest with ourselves and God, in our culture, it is impossible not to struggle in my opinion.
I know of christians who have come forward and asked for help with this struggle...they have been removed from leadership, outcast, and pushed out. While the fat ass elder sits on the front row with his arms propped up on his belly. This addiction/struggle is taboo in the church, yet it is sucking us men in one at a time.
I don't think R.Jeremey should be invited on stage of a church service. Larry, what software do you use?
Larry, what software do you use?
I use cloudcare by bsecure:
http://www.bsecure.com/
I highly recommend it. Sometimes it blocks legit sites (rarely) but it does not slow down your computer. I don't even think about it, it just runs in the background.
Every guy struggles with it. It's funny how far I've gone to fight it. I can barely watch any sitcoms anymore on TV. My wife can watch them and not be affected at all but I can't. I can't watch anything rated R unless it's something like Gladiator.
BTW - Chuck have you seen how much Perry Noble talks about it? He admits he was addicted to porn on the internet for 9 years, even after he became a Christian.
I know I've put up very strict guardrails and some of you might find them extreme, but it really has heightened my sensitivity to the subject. Things other Christians don't think are wrong come across very "porn" to me.
I have noticed Larry. My wife thinks that pastors that talk about "it" too much have something to hide, not sure i agree.
It's funny you bring that up Larry, about "guardrails", yours are nothing to mine. It may be easier for me to explain why i can't just go have a beer with you now :)
I don't watch TV anymore, i do watch sports, but man o man is it tough just to get through that...commercials, cheerleaders, eye candy reporters, celebs in the crowd...
it really takes the joy out of the game for me. This would be an interesting discussion as to what "guardrails" are needed. I find it interesting watching tweets from pastors, etc. about LOST (and other shows)...i don't know how you could watch LOST and not lust...it's that simple.
The few flashes in my mind from that show are nothing but soft core porn...
If we, as christian men are really serious about this issue, i mean serious, 80% of what we put in front of our eyes needs to be revaluated.
I could make an argument for LOST but I won't take the time except to say that my wife and I watched all the seasons on Hulu/Netflix/Itunes in about 4 months. We watched it together and enjoyed most of it.
I prefer replacement as opposed to filtered avoidance. There are of course things to be avoided for sure. It seems to me that the more time that is spent in the Word and with Christian fellowship (like this blog, bible studies, church etc) the problem of Lust can be diminished and our view of God is increased.
Realize as a technical person if I really want to be in sin I can just install a new OS in a virtual machine and do what I want to. Which is why replacement is so important to me
When you have the time, i'd like to hear your arguement...especially for the adultery, sex with multiple un-married men, sex scenes, girls in under garments...especially since I took the time to read the Glen Beck drivel :)
There is something troubling me now. I'm reading all your comments and feeling like I need to go underground and stay there till the Lord comes for me. Lets just admit it. its flat out impossible to avoid it. You can't walk through an airport or down the street. Forget TV. I got neighbors who make it hard to walk down my street. So may I suggest a little less dwelling on what's before us and a whole lot more giving ourselves over to the Spirit. He doesn't make hot women walk down other streets. But he makes me blind to it. All my struggles are purely self inflicted. That is I CHOSE to look. I CHOSE to dwell on it. I have found a simple prayer before I leave the house asking God to keep my mind pure works every time. My problem is not asking the Lord when I should.
I think Craig nailed it. We need to spend more time in prayer and in the word otherwise find me a white room with padded walls. As our pastor said, "If you don't have a prayer life, you already have what you want and you are praying for the wrong things"
Good post Craig. Now we are getting somewhere. I think it varies from man to man somewhat based on their struggles.
"So may I suggest a little less dwelling on what's before us and a whole lot more giving ourselves over to the Spirit."
Not sure I agree with this one...for me, I have to be alert 100% of the time what I put before me. What does "giving ourselves over to the spirit" look like? Wouldn't that be what i put before my eyes?
Personally, when i hear "giving ourselves over to the spirit"...it take me back to my legalistic upbringing that translates squat in my actual everyday life.
Am i making sense? (Jim don't answer that)
"He doesn't make hot women walk down other streets. But he makes me blind to it."
Craig seriously - he makes you blind to it? Give me a break. Andy Stanley came down on the women in the congregation saying he was a man first and a preacher 2nd and they were causing him to sin. I'm sure he'd be interested in hearing about this mystery blindness!
Jim - I'll wait to hear your explanation to Chuck before I comment on shows like LOST.
Kevin has the biggest guardrails if he's reading this - he has no TV in his house.
OK Larry, your taking me a little bit to literal. I don't mean I bump into them and don't know what they are. I am saying that if you listen to most men they sound like "I'm doomed to a life of lust. What shall I ever do." Then I say the Bible is false and the Holy Spirit has no power in my life. I hate to tell you this but hot women are hear to stay. So if my Bible is right, and I have THE HOLY SPIRIT dwelling in me then "I am more than conquer through Jesus Christ who saved me." This is the basis of Gal.2:20 Its not me living but Christ through me. I'm going to be impressed by hot women. That's the way God made me. But I chose to dwell on it when I don't have to.
"I'm going to be impressed by hot women. That's the way God made me. But I chose to dwell on it when I don't have to."
I've read that 5 times and I think you may have mis-typed :)
I understand what you are saying and yes, it makes sense. But for me, a person that has struggled with lust for as long as i can remember, it isn't enough for me. I'm not saying, God isn't enough, i'm saying i have to take intentional steps to "guardrail" my thoughts and what is before me.
All of this is an argument on a sliding scale. There are really no absolutes of what Craig should look at versus what Chuck should look at.
We all know where our own lines are between "good looking" and "lust" or between "noticing beautiful women" and "lusting after them". If the line was clear for everyone we could make some standards of what to do and what not to do. But unfortunately we can't.
This leads to the LOST discussion. I really don't have a problem with those type of shows. Ones that have a plot, good actors and yes nice looking women as a part of the show. In addition I don't care about the fact that they might be in a morally bad situations because I can call it that and I know that it is morally bad. HOWEVER, if shows like LOST were to take up even a large minority of my time and they diminished the time I spent with God and His people then I have a problem which will lead to lust and other things.
Personally I have a line that I can't cross and try to avoid at all costs, although I have slipped many times in my sinful life, but it deals with lustful subject matter that you won't find on a television network during prime time.
Craig - I agree and good clarification. The dwelling on it is the sin.
Chuck - I'm on your side. Guardrails are very important to me as well. Why not make it so it's less likely you'll have something to "dwell" on? For me the REMOVAL of the POSSIBILITY of the temptation makes it so much easier.
Jim - Your last paragraph I'm sure was tough to type but you're not alone. I am very glad I don't have your techie expertise to beat the system! I'll throw a question out to you though about shows like LOST. Would you watch it if there was a gay couple that regularly embraced/made out on the show? Would you still call that "morally bad" and keep watching?
To your question Larry the answer would be no. That would cross the line of good entertainment to bad entertainment from my point of view
Larry- To your last paragraph then it doesn't matter if it's lust, didtain, or hate. "Him who knoweth to do good and doesn't, to him it's sin. Watching LOST is it any difference to lust a women or hate a gay couple?
Craig - of course all of those are sin. There is no sin hierarchy - hate and lust are both equal. The question is can you watch a show like LOST and not lust? For me - no I cannot. When I was 20something I thought I was above it and could handle it but now I know personally can't.
This is my way of fighting culture as a Christian. I would never legislate this morality on anyone. Nor do I think that because this is my conviction that it is binding on everyone else.
LOST is the wrong show to pick on when it comes to complaining about trash the networks put out there. I've seen every episode, and for me, it's never been gratuitous with lust-inducing scenes.
In fact, I give huge kudos to it for having made faith such a profound theme. While it wasn't always strictly Christian faith portrayed, any time Psalm 23 is quoted in full on an episode, I think that's pretty amazing. Is it gospel? No. And I'd never recommend it as the only vehicle to someone who's exploring spiritually to win them to Christ. But it certainly is something around which deep faith-based discussions can be had.
But I digress, since the passengers of Oceanic Flight 815 aren't the main topic of conversation here... I once heard someone explain the temptation of lust this way - there are two kinds of men: those who struggle with it, and those who lie about it. It's a constant battle for everyone, but it's a battle of different proportions for different men.
I also once heard someone say no one can prevent a bird flying over their head (the smut we're bombarded with consistently each day), but you can keep it from building a nest on your head (dwelling on it). The problem is that for some, that "bird" can often be a pterodactyl.
Whatever works for you to walk in purity - such as a hardcore (pardon the unintended pun) approach of not watching any TV and limiting your internet access to temptation as much as possible - is the level of effort you should take. If you're not as rigid with what you watch, you have to be in tune with the Spirit, and listen for its prodding when it comes to what you should or shouldn't allow your eyes and ears to take in.
As already mentioned, I think it's dangerous to make your own scale of self-control the standard for everyone, which leads me back to the original question of what Craig Gross is doing.
Paul said he became all things to all men (1 Cor. 9:21-23) to win them to Christ, and while I don't think I could ever do what Craig does, I think it's a shame that he's criticized for his efforts. When Paul was out preaching in Gentile towns, many of his stops would have been like the Las Vegas strip (minus all the neon and Blue Man acts), where all kinds of temples with open fertility acts were going on all around him. And yet he was there.
I'm sure he had his own self-control spirit-led standards while there, but he didn't shy away from these "sin cities."
I think more churches should allow Craig and Ron Jeremy to have an open debate on their stage. Part of the problem with the church today is there's not enough open discussion around porn - we shy away from it because it's so bad and uncomfortable, yet it plagues men of faith like nothing else. As awkward as it might be, it would be loudly heard and create many discussions between men, as well as
husbands and wives.
Personally speaking, while I'm in no way perfect, what works best for me in this whole topic is predominately using my work laptop,
having a few guys make it a recurring question to hold me accountable (Larry, I mentioned you in a recent conversation about the topic of accountability), and just listening for that still small voice with what I see and hear. Having a conversation with my wife about the temptation of lust was one of the best things I've done with it as well. It wasn't easy, but shining light on it was huge (she initially thought that wasn't a struggle for me - ha!).
Is this a fault-tolerant strategy? Yes, because I'm flesh and prone to many faults. But let's be honest, I'm not strong enough to do it on my own anyway. Which is why another of Paul's letters (Romans 7) is so reassuring.
Matt-very nice editorial. I'm with you all the way except maybe the Ron & Craig debates. What's to debate? Really???
Matt,
I would 100% agree with the quote, "there are two kinds of men: those who struggle with it, and those who lie about it."
And in turn would point to your first paragraph as a lie, just sayin :)
The point wasn't to single out LOST, very much aware of the crap on TV, the commercials are worse than the show most of the time. The point was, as you did so well backing up, that most "christians" laugh off the notion that LOST is full of crap. We let down our defenses on what we let in our homes and mind, we make excuses, we sometimes just don't care...but the "slippery slope" that we like talking about so much in the church world seems to me like just talk most of the time.
I know what is right and wrong for me, and am not making those decisions for you, i'm just throwing that out for us to think on. I'll let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
Matt is in the house! Don't think you're going to impress me with your fancy book-learning writing skills. Seriously though - great post Matt - thanks for chiming in.
Matthew 5:29a
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away.
I know Jesus is using hyperbole, but the principal is to get rid of the temptation. I took this at face value and set my guardrails very tightly on this issue. I agree with you - my standard is not the scale for everyone; I have other areas of my life where my guardrails would be far looser than other Christians. I think Chuck is saying that "christians" and even many preachers watch the Bachelor, Desperate Housewives, etc - and just accept the idea that because Hollywood deems it primetime, we should all consider it OK. They're letting Hollywood dictate what enters through their eyes without even considering it. Then if someone goes the next step into porn - they can't even ask for help and are condemned in the church.
Back to the original topic - you said:
"As awkward as it might be, it would be loudly heard and create many discussions between men, as well as husbands and wives."
Do we really need to bring Ron Jeremy on to the stage to create this? Couldn't Craig Gross just talk about his ministry onstage and accomplish the same thing? What is Ron Jeremy going to contribute to the conversation?
BTW - I believe Craig Gross' ministry is good and am glad he's doing it. He gets so much criticism from our judgmental brothers.
All of the opinions and ideas on this massive 25+ comments have been good ones and worthy of thinking about. I love getting my ideas challenged on this blog, especially by people I have never met in person. I find that one of the most unique aspects of the internet.
There is one point that I just don't understand at all.
That is the idea of bringing Ron Jeremy onto the stage in a church to to foster a discussion on the issue of Porn. Has anyone really not read the bible on this issue. As Larry said "what could he possibly contribute?
Our discussions from the pulpit and in the church should come from the bible as the source. If you are not an authority (i.e. teacher, pastor, scholar etc) on the Bible then you should not be teaching in the church. What next, are we going to have the president of Jack Daniels come and discuss drinking to a group of people that might be struggling with this topic also?
Check out Romans 14:13-17
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. (14) I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (15) Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. (16) Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; (17) for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
There is the stumbling issue and the fact that Ron Jeremy knows nothing of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
If we allow Ron Jeremy into the church we should make a rule that only people who not have a problem with this issue can come to the meeting. Then we will know who is really living a lie.
I agree with Larry that Craig Gross' ministry is good but I would say it should be a ministry of a missionary style and not a pastoral style since the later involves the shepherding of a diverse flock of sinful humans.
Don't misunderstand what I am saying. The topic is valuable in ministry, men's retreats etc but only from qualified people as I mentioned above.
Matthew 5:28 "If a man looks on a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Psalm 101:3 "I will set no unclean thing before my eyes."
Philippians 4:7, 8 "Keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus... Whatsover things are pure... if there be any virtue... think on these things."
Being tempted is not sin but giving in to it, or seeking it out, surely is.
Good post Jim, i agree. I can see how the "debate" can get him in front of people to share the gospel and what God says to the secular world such as universities, etc.
To bring the "debate" into a worship service just makes no sense to me. I get what he is trying to accomplish and agree there needs to be more dialogue, just don't agree with this method in a worship service.
I forgot about this blog for several days, but I've just caught up. Better late than never.
I'll have to trust that Craig Goss has the right movites here. Yes, Jesus was a friend of sinners, and spent a great deal of time with the worst of them. But I don't know that he was continually hanging with unrepentant sinners. Yeah, its hard to say, because his ministry was only 3 years.
From what I can tell, Jesus called sin what it is and people were either transformed or turned off; The woman at the well, the rich young ruler.
How long will this "debate tour" go on? Is Ron simply a pawn in Craig's ministry or Craig's witnessing to Ron just taking several years?