The Least Among Us
Most of you know I try to go out and get a beer with at least once a month with my neighbor who is an agnostic. He and I have become very close friends. He is a screaming, bed-wetting, left-winged, socialist democrat and I’m about as far to the right as you can get since I’m a Libertarian.
Last night was our planned night to go out. He called me and said that he would be a little late since his wife (a social worker) had something come up at the last minute and would tell me about it when we went out.
As it turns out, a 13 year old girl was wandering down MY STREET. One of my other neighbors was out walking and saw this girl; she approached her and the girl told her that she had just escaped from her family who was abusing and raping her. This neighbor took her back to her house and called….guess who….my friend’s wife who is the social worker. As it turns out, she had walked miles and miles trying to get away from her family and just happened to walk down my street.
So I look at my friend and say, “Why are you sitting here with me? Don’t you need to be home consoling your wife and making sure she’s ok after dealing with something so evil?” He looked quizzically at me and said “This is what she deals with every single day. You think she’s more shocked because one of them wandered over to our street?”
So the non-Christian social worker who makes $28K per year and already had 40 similar cases now gets to deal with one more disgusting case. I exclaim “that’s outrageous!” His reply? “You voted for Nikki Haley (tea party/Republican governor of SC). She’s announced she’s going to cut funding even further, so I guess (wife’s name)’s job will just have to get a little tougher.”
Now the bad news….ready? My friend told me the police will come and most likely take the child back to her family. The testimony of a child isn’t worth much unless it can be substantiated.
I’m a true political libertarian. I don’t believe that someone’s need gives them a claim to someone else’s property or time. They do however, have a claim on us via our claim as Christians. Where is the body of Christ? Why don’t we scream for justice for the least among us? How can we just pretend that girl is not really there? She’s there! She exists! What in the HELL are we doing?
Last night was our planned night to go out. He called me and said that he would be a little late since his wife (a social worker) had something come up at the last minute and would tell me about it when we went out.
As it turns out, a 13 year old girl was wandering down MY STREET. One of my other neighbors was out walking and saw this girl; she approached her and the girl told her that she had just escaped from her family who was abusing and raping her. This neighbor took her back to her house and called….guess who….my friend’s wife who is the social worker. As it turns out, she had walked miles and miles trying to get away from her family and just happened to walk down my street.
So I look at my friend and say, “Why are you sitting here with me? Don’t you need to be home consoling your wife and making sure she’s ok after dealing with something so evil?” He looked quizzically at me and said “This is what she deals with every single day. You think she’s more shocked because one of them wandered over to our street?”
So the non-Christian social worker who makes $28K per year and already had 40 similar cases now gets to deal with one more disgusting case. I exclaim “that’s outrageous!” His reply? “You voted for Nikki Haley (tea party/Republican governor of SC). She’s announced she’s going to cut funding even further, so I guess (wife’s name)’s job will just have to get a little tougher.”
Now the bad news….ready? My friend told me the police will come and most likely take the child back to her family. The testimony of a child isn’t worth much unless it can be substantiated.
I’m a true political libertarian. I don’t believe that someone’s need gives them a claim to someone else’s property or time. They do however, have a claim on us via our claim as Christians. Where is the body of Christ? Why don’t we scream for justice for the least among us? How can we just pretend that girl is not really there? She’s there! She exists! What in the HELL are we doing?
Interesting post. This could go many places so let's start here.
"They do however, have a claim on us via our claim as Christians" -- can you back that up with scripture? Is this a corporate church responsibility or an individual responsibility or both?
"How can we just pretend that girl is not really there? She’s there!"
Who is pretending? Are you saying that the church in your area does not have enough social programs? Are they not doing enough to reach out to the community? Would should the church have done in this situation?
I know I haven't actually given any thoughts but only questions. Hopefully one of the responses to these questions will get us started
Jim - I don't even know where to start to answer your first question of backing that up with Scripture. It's like one of the most talked about themes in Scripture. Parable of the Good Samaritan? Any of the verses listed here?
http://www.openbible.info/topics/helping_those_in_need
Who's pretending? I'm pretending. The church is pretending. Why don't we have shelters in our churches? Because we don't WANT these people to exist, we want them to just go away. We stick our fingers in our ears and yell "la la la I can't hear you!"
So are my libertarian politics wrong? I still don't believe so, but I better back it up with some SERIOUS altruism.
Flag on the play. You win the penalty for gross generalizations.
"The church is pretending. Why don't we have shelters in our churches? Because we don't WANT these people to exist, we want them to just go away. We stick our fingers in our ears and yell "la la la I can't hear you!"
That is quite an accusation. How about backing it up with Larry's guide to building a church and using the resources given to it by the members? Where would you spend the money? How does presenting the gospel to the unsaved rank as important since if you have the best social programs and they die unsaved then what have you gained.
You can pick on individual churches but let' not throw them all under the bus. The directive from Jesus to us is the Great Commission found in Matthew to create disciples. Then maybe the disciples created and help share the gospel and solve the needs of the homeless.
LOL - Thanks for posting passionately! Help me correct my generalization please.
So you just dismiss all those verses I quickly pointed out just to focus on 3 verses in Matt 28? Screw the poor - they're in my way of accomplishing Matt 28:18-20? Please tell me how many people got saved in your church over the last several months. I expect you to ignore this by the way and comment on something else.
Exactly what % of the dollars taken in by your church are not self-serving? Every church I've ever been in spends practically all it's money on itself.
Are you suggesting that helping the poor is not a good way to spread the gospel?
I didn't dismiss then and I don't need to argue the need for helping the poor. I wondered if you were putting the responsibility on the church as an organization or the individual. I gather that you are talking about the church as an organization.
I don't know how many people were saved in our church in the last few months but I do know that we average 80-100 people in our baptism services that we have 3 times a year. And you have to be saved before being baptized in our church.
So recently our church did "Fall Fest". An alternative to Halloween. It is self serving in that our church did attend and enjoy it but we had over 700 volunteers from our church put it on. We had 4 bounce houses, pony rides, train rides, laser tag, games, live concerts, all the candy you can imaging, 6000 in and out burgers and other food, coffee and pumpkins. We did this for the community in the parking lot of the federal building in a neighboring city. And based on the response it blessed a number of people who needed something better than trick or treating to do in our area and didn't have any money. The entire event was FREE. The food was FREE, we charged for nothing. The cleanup ending the next morning around 9am for an event that ended 12 hours earlier. We do a similar event for Easter -- a community easter egg hunt, games, etc. and all Free.
helping the poor can be a way to spread the gospel but the danger is that you meet their physical needs and never address the spiritual ones.
LOL...so you did exactly what everyone else does and just call it an 'alternative'?
Oh....and back on topic...i have a 13 year old daughter.
Indeed...a much needed alternative. I am not ready for my 2 year old to experience all the craziness of Halloween and I don't think he is ready for me to explain evil to him. With our policy of no scary costumes and the turnout I would say there are a lot of others in our situation.
Jim - I'm not picking on you. Your example though is exactly what I'm talking about. How can we reduce all those verses to "A good time was had by all"? Doesn't it seem ridiculous? I'm talking about rape, family abuse, abandonment, etc and you're talking about scary costumes and candy?
not ridiculous at all.
At the heart of every event our church does is the desire to reach the community, introduce them to the church and hopefully see them become saved, grow in their faith etc. Then they are equipped to help just the type of people you are talking about.
Back to a previous discussion we had on sin. Which is worse in God's eyes...a murderer and adulterer or a liar. They both are sin and hold the same penalty. Does God look more favorably on helping those in serious need like the cases you point out of rape, child abuse, family abuse etc versus those in financial need and feeling despair on the inside even though their life looks OK on the outside? What is the difference?
Paul said in Romans 10:1 "Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved."
To me that is the highest objective of a church. Whatever a church does to that objective is good in my mind. Comparing 80 years to eternity gives me a better understanding of why Paul had that view.
See that is where we differ...after i dressed my 2 year old as a turtle and my 6 year old as super mario we sat down and had a lengthy discussion about evil. Then we went and got some candy.
Did you do the same thing when your first child was 2 and there were no others around?
We did, she was an M&M. I'm not making a judgement on what you decided is right and wrong for your family, want to be clear about that.
I get a little hung up on the "christian" man made up things we do to seperate ourselves. Then I talk to my unsaved neighbor who has a chuckle that as we offer an alternative to evil and sin, and it is exactly what he was planning on doing anyway. We just call it a different name and think Jesus is smiling down on us.
Non-believers are not stupid, they see right through that crap. I wish is saw through the crap before it was too late.
And to the original post, Larry, i think Jim is right...huge generalization.
I can see you are fired up about what happened on "your street". It happens everyday on LOTS of street all over this world. So you are now outraged cause it smacked you in the face?
Churches can't be everything to everyone, they are going to have many different ministries to many different people groups. Each church focusing on different things.
And why do you always go down the "how many people got saved at your church" road? As i have discussed with you before, just cause your pastor plasters all over twitter and blogs about the hundreds of people EVERY week that get saved...i seriously question the "salvation" of the Bible in the vast majority of those "decisions".
"So you are now outraged cause it smacked you in the face?"
Yes - this ended up smacking me in the face. I've been convicted about it for awhile and I guess this ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I'll admit to the generalization too - I'll take the penalty flag as given. Certainly not every church deserved the vitriol I just spewed.
Now back to business. You two are talking about m&m's, costumes and boo boos. I'm in shock that you think this is comparable in any way. I am going to assume that you all voted Republican; you don't want the state to take your money to pay for these people, and yet you think it's not the church's responsibility either. Like I said - you want her not to exist - get out of your way so you can make sure "A Good time was had by all" at the big church feel good Halloween "alternative". I'm sure Jesus is so glad he died for that - what a brave bunch of soldiers we are! I'm preaching to myself too trust me.
Chuck - regarding my "how many are saved" comment, it had nothing to do with my church, you know I've got my own issues with that. I was challenging Jim on his "great commission is the most important" pedestal he put out there. My church had NOTHING to do with my comment on that. He claimed Matt 28 and then ignored all those other Scriptures I said.
I'm glad that you got smacked in the face, now what?
The halloween rabbit trail was just that by me, the whole "alternative" thing burns me up. It had nothing to do with your post for me.
I'll leave the last thing alone I guess...you thrown that statement out several times in the past...so my first reaction would be, "well, what about your church, how many are saved on sunday?" and you would answer, and then you can insert my post from before :)
Just so we are thinking your post through rationally...how do you know this 13 year old was told she couldn't have a cell phone like all her friends...so she got pissed off, ran away, and is spewing lies?
Do they just remove this child from her parents because she said these things? I have a 13 year old, she has been told she will not get a cell phone like all her friends, she has been pissed off. (no she hasn't done anything else, but it could happen) and in your vigor you are going to take my child away from me?
You are lucky you are libretarian, you wouldn't be offended when i shoot you! :)
Hey Larry
Ever been to Orange County CA? Have any clue what it is like in South Orange County? Have any idea what the people of the cities around my city need physically? Or are you just happy to make some assumptions about what we are talking about. After all you wouldn't want to show that church can be a fun place that people should check out because it surrounds an event with costumes and candy. Ok off of that rabbit trail
And in terms of the great commission isn't that why it gets that title? Creating disciples is the most important part of our job as Christians. The rest is very good and worthwhile and important. but they work together and not in competition with Matthew. They define what we do after we have disciples to do something.
You want her not to exist. NOw that is a stretch and another assumption. Every worked in the inner city? I did for 7 years straight and saw just the problems you are describing. I worked with kids who had some seriously bad stuff going on and it did change my life.
What I can see is that you care passionately about this issue but in doing so you may have lost the ability to discuss it logically like other issues on the blog
But hey, we are all typing to help each other right?
Why won't either of you answer me? Chuck's total contribution so far is "Well, she might be lying." For arguments sake, let's say she's not. Please tell me who is supposed to help her, the state or the church or the individual?
Jim, you have greatly piqued my interest! I love logic! Please help me find the hole in my logic:
Situation: There is a desperate girl that has been raped walking down my street asking for help
Options:
1. Call the state agency responsible and have them deal with it.
2. Call the church and/or some other charitable organization and have them deal with it.
3. I should personally deal with it
4. Decide to do nothing
Whatever you do, don't lookup James 2:15!
My total contribution is she "might be lying"? NO, my contribution is that something that has been bothering you and YOU did nothing, has slapped you in the face and become a reality, and now all the world needs to be outraged just like you.
Give me a break, you act like the horror was just discovered by you? Each one of us has a reality we deal with each day...my reality is i'm a POS sinner in desperate need of grace from a loving saviour...but i don't understand it ,get it, and sometimes question I even believe it.
Call the freakin authorities if you think she has been harmed, that is what the government you are so concerned about was set up to do...protect her. Good luck.
Chuck obviously I made you angry, that wasn't my intent. Thank you for at least answering the question directly - you chose #1. I don't think you're being fair by saying I did nothing; you can verify yourself if you think about it. Email me if you want.
Obviously I must be doing a poor job of communicating my concern here. My concern is that we have churches with awesome fun programs for kids, great music, youth nights, softball teams, etc - somehow we have money for all that stuff. All of it is self-serving. It only helps us the members of the church. Everybody here knows I love Andy Stanley but he's building a multi-million $$ bridge so that the guy in his Mercedes doesn't have to wait so long to get out of the parking lot.
The early church in Acts pooled it's resources so that no one was in need. They appointed specific people to look after orphans and widows. Why do we feel it's ok to abdicate that responsibility to the state? I'm asking - not saying that I've got the answer. If the state is the correct place for her, then why do we feel it's ok to try and send as few tax dollars towards it as possible?
Trying to keep this civil, obviously it's very touchy....
Situation: There is a desperate girl that has been raped walking down my street asking for help
Options:
1. Call the state agency responsible and have them deal with it.
2. Call the church and/or some other charitable organization and have them deal with it.
3. I should personally deal with it
4. Decide to do nothing
You should make sure that person gets a meal, warm clothes and anything they need. Then if the person is under 18 you need to call the local authorities since that is there jurisdiction. If the person is over 18 you can call Organizations like Salvation Army, the local rescue missions, or churches that have the capacity to deal with that type of issue.
I personally see the organized church as having the job of bring in unchurched/unsaved people and creating disciples teaching them in all the ways of scripture. Then I see passages like the Good Samaritan and the James 2 verses as speaking directly to the individual. If done correct a portion of the job of the church is self serving and a portion is an outreach to the community.
I have no idea where you are coming from? Our church has a minisry, called 1Another, i was director of it for six years. All it did was minister to the body..especially the orphan, widow, single mom, person in need.
Are you upset because the church you go to doesn't have anything? I'm just not sure what your point is? Because a church has a fall festival it means they aren't doing these other things?
Are you trying to make this political? I guess my frustration is i don't know your point and then get told "all I have to contribute" after I try to answer it.
If a 13 year old girl is on my street and says she has been abused I call the authorities immediately...i don't take her or go with her without someone else with me. Period. The church has NO business messing in something where a crime has/may have been committed.
"If done correct a portion of the job of the church is self serving and a portion is an outreach to the community."
Jim - I agree with the above (other than your use of the word "correct" instead of "correctly" :) ). I guess I'm frustrated with this split. It seems to me (I hate that phrase because it's subjective but it's all I have) that the portion dedicated to the community is minuscule. If you guys think I'm wrong about that, please correct me.
Chuck - I guess my point is that many Christians want to stop govt spending on social programs but then don't pony up the $ to help on the private side. Trying to have it both ways is saying "screw you" to the poor man - I guess that's why I'm upset.
If you would have just said that from the start it would have been much easier on me :)
My issue (from experience) is with churches that spend all the energy on getting people saved but do not spend anytime teaching them how to be disciples of Christ. So my portion to the church will be bigger than the portion to the community because in doing so we have a more trained group of individuals who can make a larger impact. And let's not forget that the disciples who were around Jesus all the time still had trouble understanding how to be a disciple. And they had a 7 day a week teacher!
Totally agree Jim.
Maybe all the saved people from Larry's church can be flown (don't wanna be known as cheap) to your church to be discipled. *the second part was total sarcasm and me being a butt to larry* (see your pastor's blog ;0) )
LOL...pretty funny! Maybe I'll come to your church on Sunday...oh wait....hello? Chuck?
Jim - what is a correct portion to be spent on community? Do you think we're currently spending the right amount as the body of Christ?
I grew up in a church that was always "edifying" and no one ever got saved. Then I went to college where everybody oohhed and aahhed over AW Tozer and people like that but then did absolutely nothing.
I'll take 1 out of 100 conversions as "genuine" any day over zero out of zero. I also don't understand why it's wrong to get excited about people getting saved? This belongs on it's own thread. Jim why don't you write a post on "The proper role of Church" and I'll post it.
Who said it was wrong to get excited about people getting saved?
And I went to your same college...no idea who AW Tozer was? Drummer for AC/DC? :)
"I'll take 1 out of 100 conversions as "genuine" any day over zero out of zero." ... not sure i agree with this statement, don't think Jesus would either. He wanted people to repent. Not stand up in a service and shout his name, or write their name on a wall, or some other gimmick to get people "excited"...he wanted them to repent.
Jim - what is a correct portion to be spent on community? Do you think we're currently spending the right amount as the body of Christ?
hard to answer and impossible to evaluate the entire body of Christ. But maybe the next post will allow that discussion to happen. I will see what I can come up with.
I also don't understand why it's wrong to get excited about people getting saved? (nothing wrong with that, but I don't want to see a lot of Matthew 7:21 happening from folks in our churches. But that belongs with the next post also
"hard to answer and impossible to evaluate the entire body of Christ."
Are you running for office in California? Just kidding. We can stop this conversation. I just want to say that I'm glad we discussed it. I will be making some personal changes as a result of my recent slap in the face and our discussion here. As always, I got something out of all of this.